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My conservative friends, not in the intelligence community, really don't like him. They try to be civil, but I can almost hear them hiss when I mention "Snowden

My conservative friends, not in the intelligence community, really don't like him. They try to be civil, but I can almost hear them hiss when I mention "Snowden". It's odd to me. They don't mind digital surveillance at all. They think it's good if it makes everyone safer. Throwing in my two cents, what interests me on the Snowden topic, is his character. While I'm glad Snowden took the initiative and risk, I don't believe he did it for altruistic reasons: sacrificing himself for the greater good. My opinion is based on seeing and hearing Edward Snowden talk in the documentary "Citizen 4" and other interviews. Many people say, "Look at what he did. He gave up his life in America. He sacrificed everything for no financial reward. He's a hero." It's true he took a big risk; he could still spend a lot of his life in prison. But he has gained huge from this risk. He is famous and respected by many; they're making a fucking movie about him. It reminds me of the line at the end of "The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford": "You know what I expected [after I killed Jesse James]? Applause."

colemickens 10y ago
I really wish I could understand the people that are: 1. "patriotic" but don't respect those who stand up for ideals in the Constitution 2. "anti-government" or "anti-authority" but don't respect those who stand up to challenge the blind power grabs by the government and say things like "fix it from within" (when they would never, ever say the same thing about the IRS, for example) 3. "libertarian" but again, don't actually seem to care about liberties other than the Second Amendmend and finding ways to defund public services so they can pay less taxes. Just seems like a lot of cognitive dissonance at play among the libertarians who don't support Snowden.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  Was GP talking about libertarians? I only saw mention of conservatives. Granted, there are people who blur the line, and libertarianism isn't as coherent a political philosophy as e.g. anarchism, but there are lots of libertarians who care much more about e.g. police excess or censorship than about gun rights or taxes. It is a disservice to rational conversation to conflate different concepts in this way.
- zeveb 10y ago
  > 1. "patriotic" but don't respect those who stand up for ideals in the Constitution Perhaps we think that we are standing up for those ideals? Perhaps we believe that the Constitution actually does set up a government and grant it certain powers, and that it's perfectly constitutional for that government to use those powers? > 2. "anti-government" or "anti-authority" but don't respect those who stand up to challenge the blind power grabs by the government and say things like "fix it from within" (when they would never, ever say the same thing about the IRS, for example) Because national security is an issue. You simply don't reveal your military strengths and weaknesses to potential adversaries; that's like going into a dodgy bar and announcing, 'BTW, in case of a fight, I have a bruised right rib.' > 3. "libertarian" but again, don't actually seem to care about liberties other than the Second Amendmend and finding ways to defund public services so they can pay less taxes. I care deeply about my liberties. I just don't believe that anything Snowden alleges constitutes an infringement upon those liberties.
  - ookdatnog 10y ago
    > Perhaps we think that we are standing up for those ideals? Perhaps we believe that the Constitution actually does set up a government and grant it certain powers, and that it's perfectly constitutional for that government to use those powers? The government is granted those powers by democratic mandate. When a mass surveillance system can be set up without any democratic debate, these powers were never granted to the government, it grabbed them without permission. When the director of the NSA lies to Congress under oath, there is no democratic oversight over these powers.
  - colemickens 10y ago
    Wow. Mass, completely unwarranted surveillance of all citizens is really just no sweat to you? Breaking into domestic corporations and invididuals' computers? Lying on an unprecedented scale, including to Congress. I just can't take this comment as being in good faith. The NSA has countless times violated the Constitution that binds our "government" and separation of powers that you hint at.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
ookdatnog 10y ago
If I recall correctly, Snowden didn't even have concrete plans to escape from Hong Kong after revealing his identity. Wikileaks sent someone to get him to Russia. He just assumed he'd get caught. If this is true, I find your theory implausible. Also, from hearing him talk, I'm quite convinced he thought long and hard about the moral implications of what he's doing. To the point where it would surprise me very much if "the greater good" weren't his primary motivation.
- kpwagner 10y ago
  Interesting thoughts. Snowden definitely has some well thought out arguments in favor of his actions. I would guess he believes he is "just". My opinion is based on reading his voice and body language. It's hard to describe; he seems a little too pleased with himself and a little too happy to be along for the ride.
  - ookdatnog 10y ago
    He may very well be vain (I haven't really picked that up myself, but I heard several people independently form that opinion, so that's plausible), but I don't think that's mutually exclusive with pure intentions.
bnolsen 10y ago
well I'm conservative and all this surveillence runs roughshod over the 4th amendment. What we have is a bunch of control freaks in government who are afraid of their own shadows. I worked for years in black hat type ops and the attitude especially of the FBI is both creepy and hyper paranoid. Interestingly enough when it's someone very high up in the government incompetently and negligently dumping a bunch of intel (like some former sec of state) it's hands off. But crucify the guy who tries to expose gross abuse of power and bring down the machinery. The machinery wants to crucify him and make a huge example. The machinery needs to be fixed and Snowden's actions need to be better examined by a group not so invested the massive machine.

colemickens 10y ago

I really wish I could understand the people that are: 1. "patriotic" but don't respect those who stand up for ideals in the Constitution 2. "anti-government" or "anti-authority" but don't respect those who stand up to challenge the blind power grabs by the government and say things like "fix it from within" (when they would never, ever say the same thing about the IRS, for example) 3. "libertarian" but again, don't actually seem to care about liberties other than the Second Amendmend and finding ways to defund public services so they can pay less taxes. Just seems like a lot of cognitive dissonance at play among the libertarians who don't support Snowden.

jessaustin 10y ago
Was GP talking about libertarians? I only saw mention of conservatives. Granted, there are people who blur the line, and libertarianism isn't as coherent a political philosophy as e.g. anarchism, but there are lots of libertarians who care much more about e.g. police excess or censorship than about gun rights or taxes. It is a disservice to rational conversation to conflate different concepts in this way.
zeveb 10y ago
> 1. "patriotic" but don't respect those who stand up for ideals in the Constitution Perhaps we think that we are standing up for those ideals? Perhaps we believe that the Constitution actually does set up a government and grant it certain powers, and that it's perfectly constitutional for that government to use those powers? > 2. "anti-government" or "anti-authority" but don't respect those who stand up to challenge the blind power grabs by the government and say things like "fix it from within" (when they would never, ever say the same thing about the IRS, for example) Because national security is an issue. You simply don't reveal your military strengths and weaknesses to potential adversaries; that's like going into a dodgy bar and announcing, 'BTW, in case of a fight, I have a bruised right rib.' > 3. "libertarian" but again, don't actually seem to care about liberties other than the Second Amendmend and finding ways to defund public services so they can pay less taxes. I care deeply about my liberties. I just don't believe that anything Snowden alleges constitutes an infringement upon those liberties.
- ookdatnog 10y ago
  > Perhaps we think that we are standing up for those ideals? Perhaps we believe that the Constitution actually does set up a government and grant it certain powers, and that it's perfectly constitutional for that government to use those powers? The government is granted those powers by democratic mandate. When a mass surveillance system can be set up without any democratic debate, these powers were never granted to the government, it grabbed them without permission. When the director of the NSA lies to Congress under oath, there is no democratic oversight over these powers.
- colemickens 10y ago
  Wow. Mass, completely unwarranted surveillance of all citizens is really just no sweat to you? Breaking into domestic corporations and invididuals' computers? Lying on an unprecedented scale, including to Congress. I just can't take this comment as being in good faith. The NSA has countless times violated the Constitution that binds our "government" and separation of powers that you hint at.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

ookdatnog 10y ago

If I recall correctly, Snowden didn't even have concrete plans to escape from Hong Kong after revealing his identity. Wikileaks sent someone to get him to Russia. He just assumed he'd get caught. If this is true, I find your theory implausible. Also, from hearing him talk, I'm quite convinced he thought long and hard about the moral implications of what he's doing. To the point where it would surprise me very much if "the greater good" weren't his primary motivation.

kpwagner 10y ago
Interesting thoughts. Snowden definitely has some well thought out arguments in favor of his actions. I would guess he believes he is "just". My opinion is based on reading his voice and body language. It's hard to describe; he seems a little too pleased with himself and a little too happy to be along for the ride.
- ookdatnog 10y ago
  He may very well be vain (I haven't really picked that up myself, but I heard several people independently form that opinion, so that's plausible), but I don't think that's mutually exclusive with pure intentions.

bnolsen 10y ago

well I'm conservative and all this surveillence runs roughshod over the 4th amendment. What we have is a bunch of control freaks in government who are afraid of their own shadows. I worked for years in black hat type ops and the attitude especially of the FBI is both creepy and hyper paranoid. Interestingly enough when it's someone very high up in the government incompetently and negligently dumping a bunch of intel (like some former sec of state) it's hands off. But crucify the guy who tries to expose gross abuse of power and bring down the machinery. The machinery wants to crucify him and make a huge example. The machinery needs to be fixed and Snowden's actions need to be better examined by a group not so invested the massive machine.