4 ms·

In principle, yes you are right. However, there is only so much hedging and differentiation I can put into a post without turning it into an essay. What I want

In principle, yes you are right. However, there is only so much hedging and differentiation I can put into a post without turning it into an essay. What I wanted to say is "realsocialist" a la former Soviet Union or East Germany. I think part of the confusion is that I live in Germany, where socialist always means that kind of one-party authoritarian system. By this definition, e.g. Bernie Sanders would be a (left-wing) social democrat, but not a socialist. I know for example in France, the middle-left-wing party calls themselves socialist... I believe they are slightly left of what you'd call "liberal" in the US.

vidarh 10y ago
> I live in Germany, where socialist always means that kind of one-party authoritarian system. No, it doesn't. There are plenty of anti-authoritarian self-styled socialists in Germany.
megalodon 10y ago
> ... hedging and differentiation ... How is the distinction hard to understand? Socialism is a system characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to capitalism, which is characterised by private ownership of the means of production. Both are ideologies. You could have compared to Soviet or East Germany directly if you wanted to make a point about totalitarian regimes. Also, I'm pretty sure Germans don't consider socialism to be an authoritarian ideology. Maybe you're confusing it with national socialism (nationalsozialismus => nazism).
- mason240 10y ago
  >Also, I'm pretty sure Germans don't consider socialism to be an authoritarian ideology. I'm not sure why the opinion of Germans matters here, they have the same capitalist economy that the US and the rest of Europe do.
- mbreese 10y ago
  There are the proper political science definitions and then there are the meanings on the ground (so to speak). Unfortunately, the latter are fluid depending on the country and don't always line up...
- sampo 10y ago
  > Socialism is a system characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to capitalism, which is characterised by private ownership of the means of production. Both are ideologies. Historically, every attempt to build a socialistic society has led to tyranny. One can wonder, if this might be an inevitable consequence along the path to attempt socialism. But we have managed to build several capitalistic societies which did not fall into tyranny (although some did).
  - turar 10y ago
    > Historically, every attempt to build a socialistic society has led to tyranny. http://wrightstories.com/attempts-to-fly-before-the-wrights/ http://wrightstories.com/attempts-to-fly-before-the-wrights/
    - sampo 10y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_perpetual_motion_machines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_perpetual_motion_ma...
shrikeh 10y ago
In the UK, the Labour part is moving back (rejoining?) it's old Socialist roots. The flawed but gracious and honourable leader of the party at present has been a socialist his entire career, but could hardly be called authoritarian.
- ablation 10y ago
  Corbyn stands virtually no chance of being elected Prime Minister, however honourable and gracious he is. I doubt the Labour Party will survive in its current form much beyond the new few years. I think there's a schism coming between the more socialist Corbyn supporting group and a more centrist group.
saint_fiasco 10y ago
Come on, authoritarian and totalitarian aren't that much longer than socialist. There is no need to write an essay. You would never think of signing such a petition in Pinochet's Chile or Stroessner's Paraguay and those weren't socialist.

vidarh 10y ago

> I live in Germany, where socialist always means that kind of one-party authoritarian system. No, it doesn't. There are plenty of anti-authoritarian self-styled socialists in Germany.

megalodon 10y ago

> ... hedging and differentiation ... How is the distinction hard to understand? Socialism is a system characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to capitalism, which is characterised by private ownership of the means of production. Both are ideologies. You could have compared to Soviet or East Germany directly if you wanted to make a point about totalitarian regimes. Also, I'm pretty sure Germans don't consider socialism to be an authoritarian ideology. Maybe you're confusing it with national socialism (nationalsozialismus => nazism).

mason240 10y ago
>Also, I'm pretty sure Germans don't consider socialism to be an authoritarian ideology. I'm not sure why the opinion of Germans matters here, they have the same capitalist economy that the US and the rest of Europe do.
mbreese 10y ago
There are the proper political science definitions and then there are the meanings on the ground (so to speak). Unfortunately, the latter are fluid depending on the country and don't always line up...
sampo 10y ago
> Socialism is a system characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to capitalism, which is characterised by private ownership of the means of production. Both are ideologies. Historically, every attempt to build a socialistic society has led to tyranny. One can wonder, if this might be an inevitable consequence along the path to attempt socialism. But we have managed to build several capitalistic societies which did not fall into tyranny (although some did).
- turar 10y ago
  > Historically, every attempt to build a socialistic society has led to tyranny. http://wrightstories.com/attempts-to-fly-before-the-wrights/ http://wrightstories.com/attempts-to-fly-before-the-wrights/
  - sampo 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_perpetual_motion_machines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_perpetual_motion_ma...

shrikeh 10y ago

In the UK, the Labour part is moving back (rejoining?) it's old Socialist roots. The flawed but gracious and honourable leader of the party at present has been a socialist his entire career, but could hardly be called authoritarian.

ablation 10y ago
Corbyn stands virtually no chance of being elected Prime Minister, however honourable and gracious he is. I doubt the Labour Party will survive in its current form much beyond the new few years. I think there's a schism coming between the more socialist Corbyn supporting group and a more centrist group.

saint_fiasco 10y ago

Come on, authoritarian and totalitarian aren't that much longer than socialist. There is no need to write an essay. You would never think of signing such a petition in Pinochet's Chile or Stroessner's Paraguay and those weren't socialist.