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By that definition France is a socialist country. I suppose you could say that to some extent but France isn't what one usually thinks of when it comes to real-

By that definition France is a socialist country. I suppose you could say that to some extent but France isn't what one usually thinks of when it comes to real-world socialism. I think socialists in particular will argue against that notion. Even worse though: Most totalitarian countries fit that description, too.

dsr_ 10y ago
That would be because "socialist" and "totalitarian" are orthogonal. One describes the methods of organization of the state and its economy; the other describes the goals of the government of the state.
mistermumble 10y ago
I think many American Republicans would consider France to be socialist. And would view many other countries as socialist, if they have things like national medical insurance and free college tuition. Except China. China for some reason is viewed as comfortably capitalist, despite the pictures of Chairman Mao on the currency and at Tienanmen Square. And except Russia, whose authoritarianism is admired. Talking perception here, not reality. The perception of people who used to be a marginal group of extremists but now have many people in positions of Governor, house of representatives, etc. And unfortunately they now have a real shot at the White House in the personage of their tribal Duce (a pathological egomaniac whose politics are unclear and span all ends of the spectrum within any given time period).
- bad_user 10y ago
  > China for some reason is viewed as comfortably capitalist For the purposes of western companies with ties to China, they have capitalism - after all, allowing child labor in sweat shops is very capitalistic. On the other hand the state controls a majority of enterprise assets even though the number of enterprises fully owned by the state is around 30%. And they also impose their will on privately owned companies, with the market not being free. Also, don't confuse capitalism with democracy ;-)
- mason240 10y ago
  Someone else being wrong (and a straw person at that) doesn't make you right.
vidarh 10y ago
> Even worse though: Most totalitarian countries fit that description, too. Consider that Marx and Engels in the Communist Manifesto spent a whole chapter tearing into other socialist ideologies, ranging from ideologies they saw as reactionary and anti-democratic and even feudal, to utopian systems that were basically anarchist. Socialist ideologies have historically spanned the spectrum from extreme libertarianism (the term libertarian was first used for a political system by a French anarcho-communist that was so anti-authority he criticised Proudhon - a prominent early anarchist - for not going far enough) to systems that basically argued for technocratic feudal systems with welfare. Using the term without specifying more is meaningless if you are talking about a specific ideology or system rather than generally about systems with certain shared characteristics. For the record, though, I agree with you that the definition in the comment you reply to doesn't make sense - it would exclude many prominent socialist ideologies.
bertil 10y ago
> By that definition France is a socialist country. France is currently governed by a majority led by the Socialist party.

dsr_ 10y ago

That would be because "socialist" and "totalitarian" are orthogonal. One describes the methods of organization of the state and its economy; the other describes the goals of the government of the state.

mistermumble 10y ago

I think many American Republicans would consider France to be socialist. And would view many other countries as socialist, if they have things like national medical insurance and free college tuition. Except China. China for some reason is viewed as comfortably capitalist, despite the pictures of Chairman Mao on the currency and at Tienanmen Square. And except Russia, whose authoritarianism is admired. Talking perception here, not reality. The perception of people who used to be a marginal group of extremists but now have many people in positions of Governor, house of representatives, etc. And unfortunately they now have a real shot at the White House in the personage of their tribal Duce (a pathological egomaniac whose politics are unclear and span all ends of the spectrum within any given time period).

bad_user 10y ago
> China for some reason is viewed as comfortably capitalist For the purposes of western companies with ties to China, they have capitalism - after all, allowing child labor in sweat shops is very capitalistic. On the other hand the state controls a majority of enterprise assets even though the number of enterprises fully owned by the state is around 30%. And they also impose their will on privately owned companies, with the market not being free. Also, don't confuse capitalism with democracy ;-)
mason240 10y ago
Someone else being wrong (and a straw person at that) doesn't make you right.

vidarh 10y ago

> Even worse though: Most totalitarian countries fit that description, too. Consider that Marx and Engels in the Communist Manifesto spent a whole chapter tearing into other socialist ideologies, ranging from ideologies they saw as reactionary and anti-democratic and even feudal, to utopian systems that were basically anarchist. Socialist ideologies have historically spanned the spectrum from extreme libertarianism (the term libertarian was first used for a political system by a French anarcho-communist that was so anti-authority he criticised Proudhon - a prominent early anarchist - for not going far enough) to systems that basically argued for technocratic feudal systems with welfare. Using the term without specifying more is meaningless if you are talking about a specific ideology or system rather than generally about systems with certain shared characteristics. For the record, though, I agree with you that the definition in the comment you reply to doesn't make sense - it would exclude many prominent socialist ideologies.

bertil 10y ago

> By that definition France is a socialist country. France is currently governed by a majority led by the Socialist party.