4 ms·

Well, if cops want to be lauded as heroes, maybe they need to act like it? I respect EMTs. I respect firefighters. Interactions with any of them has been a war

by mildbow 10y ago

Well, if cops want to be lauded as heroes, maybe they need to act like it? I respect EMTs. I respect firefighters. Interactions with any of them has been a warm and human one. They truly are heroes. They save lives with little regard for personal sacrifice. Interactions with cops? Dehumanizing: a glaring symptom of the imbalance of power. We have forgotten, to our own peril, an old adage: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.

sp527 10y ago
I think resorting to our own anecdata coupled with what the media presents us is a tempting fallacy. It's likely that most cops are good people trying to do the right thing. You might be hard-pressed to find even staunch BLM supporters who would disagree with that assertion. Where I think policing could stand to be improved is in the realm of situations involving obviously non-threatening individuals (particularly unarmed Black males). In general, our focus should be drawn to cases at the margin and not those in which decisionmaking is straightforward (e.g. armed and unstable people).
- mildbow 10y ago
  Of course. Whenever one relates personal experience in a public fora, esp. one with pretentions of logical thinking, the default reaction's to relegate it to an anecdote. The self reported intellectuals cry: "It's an anecdote so it doesn't count!" Ok. But I'm not writing a paper. I'm merely relating my experiences and subsequent thoughts. Surely many black people went through the same experience when talking about their "anomalous" and "anecdotal" interactions. Having a cop threaten me with a gun because I had the effrontery to claim a headache is an anecdote. But, it's one that indubitably influences how I approach subsequent interactions and -- moreover -- my whole stance on exactly how the power-balance in any citizen-to-cop interaction works. Yeah, plural of anecdote isn't data, but I'm not waiting for a scientific paper before I start forming my own opinions of the world.
- mildbow 10y ago
  The perception of threat by a random police officer shouldn't equate to judge+jury+executioner. However, due to the lack of consistent repercussions, it's much better for a cop to shoot first and ask questions later. Ergo, if you aren't a cop and support this situation, maybe you need to think again.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    Indeed, an officer who manages to subdue a suspect without shooting them faces repercussions. Police officer sacked for not shooting black man holding an unloaded gun: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/police-officer-sacked-not-shooting-black-man-virginia-stephen-mader-ronald-williams-a7245681.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/police-officer-sacked-not-... > “I told him, ‘Put down the gun,’ and he’s like, ‘Just shoot me.’ And I told him, ‘I’m not going to shoot you brother.’ Then he starts flicking his wrist to get me to react to it,” he said. > “I thought I was going to be able to talk to him and de-escalate it. I knew it was a 'suicide-by-cop' situation.” I'd be interested to know if that's common, or if it's a one off.
    - Digit-Al 10y ago
      I don't have the source to hand, but I seem to recall reading that it is becoming more and more common. People who are suicidal know that all they have to do is wave a weapon (even an unloaded one) in the vicinity of a cop and they'll be shot dead. Here's a Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop
- imagist 10y ago
  > I think resorting to our own anecdata coupled with what the media presents us is a tempting fallacy. It's likely that most cops are good people trying to do the right thing. In one sentence you criticize mildbow for using an anecdote. In the next sentence you counter with pure speculation. > In general, our focus should be drawn to cases at the margin and not those in which decisionmaking is straightforward (e.g. armed and unstable people). It's clearly not straightforward, because both a police officer and a large number of people on this thread disagree with you. Simply stating that your opinion is straightforwardly correct is not an argument.

by mildbow 10y ago

sp527 10y ago

I think resorting to our own anecdata coupled with what the media presents us is a tempting fallacy. It's likely that most cops are good people trying to do the right thing. You might be hard-pressed to find even staunch BLM supporters who would disagree with that assertion. Where I think policing could stand to be improved is in the realm of situations involving obviously non-threatening individuals (particularly unarmed Black males). In general, our focus should be drawn to cases at the margin and not those in which decisionmaking is straightforward (e.g. armed and unstable people).

mildbow 10y ago
Of course. Whenever one relates personal experience in a public fora, esp. one with pretentions of logical thinking, the default reaction's to relegate it to an anecdote. The self reported intellectuals cry: "It's an anecdote so it doesn't count!" Ok. But I'm not writing a paper. I'm merely relating my experiences and subsequent thoughts. Surely many black people went through the same experience when talking about their "anomalous" and "anecdotal" interactions. Having a cop threaten me with a gun because I had the effrontery to claim a headache is an anecdote. But, it's one that indubitably influences how I approach subsequent interactions and -- moreover -- my whole stance on exactly how the power-balance in any citizen-to-cop interaction works. Yeah, plural of anecdote isn't data, but I'm not waiting for a scientific paper before I start forming my own opinions of the world.
mildbow 10y ago
The perception of threat by a random police officer shouldn't equate to judge+jury+executioner. However, due to the lack of consistent repercussions, it's much better for a cop to shoot first and ask questions later. Ergo, if you aren't a cop and support this situation, maybe you need to think again.
- DanBC 10y ago
  Indeed, an officer who manages to subdue a suspect without shooting them faces repercussions. Police officer sacked for not shooting black man holding an unloaded gun: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/police-officer-sacked-not-shooting-black-man-virginia-stephen-mader-ronald-williams-a7245681.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/police-officer-sacked-not-... > “I told him, ‘Put down the gun,’ and he’s like, ‘Just shoot me.’ And I told him, ‘I’m not going to shoot you brother.’ Then he starts flicking his wrist to get me to react to it,” he said. > “I thought I was going to be able to talk to him and de-escalate it. I knew it was a 'suicide-by-cop' situation.” I'd be interested to know if that's common, or if it's a one off.
  - Digit-Al 10y ago
    I don't have the source to hand, but I seem to recall reading that it is becoming more and more common. People who are suicidal know that all they have to do is wave a weapon (even an unloaded one) in the vicinity of a cop and they'll be shot dead. Here's a Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop
imagist 10y ago
> I think resorting to our own anecdata coupled with what the media presents us is a tempting fallacy. It's likely that most cops are good people trying to do the right thing. In one sentence you criticize mildbow for using an anecdote. In the next sentence you counter with pure speculation. > In general, our focus should be drawn to cases at the margin and not those in which decisionmaking is straightforward (e.g. armed and unstable people). It's clearly not straightforward, because both a police officer and a large number of people on this thread disagree with you. Simply stating that your opinion is straightforwardly correct is not an argument.