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A dog with the intelligence of a human still has the problem of having no fine manipulators (hands) with which to assist applying their intelligence on to the w

by vacri 10y ago

A dog with the intelligence of a human still has the problem of having no fine manipulators (hands) with which to assist applying their intelligence on to the world around them.

nikofeyn 10y ago
i have often wondered if something like the orca has reached basically the pinnacle of intelligence for an ocean-dwelling animal due to the restrictions of being in water.
- meric 10y ago
  I would note squid and octopus have fine manipulators (tentacles) and they are relatively intelligent.
  - tbarbugli 10y ago
    Luckily for us their life span (at least for octopus) is really short :)
  - dharma1 10y ago
    I've often wondered if we had suitable computer-brain interfaces, could we harness octopus brains to process various computational workloads. Like a squishy co-processor
    - lawless123 10y ago
      I wonder could we do the same with humans.
    - wuschel 10y ago
      sarcasm on Don't forget, human brains are squishy, too, and there are many more of them! Sarcasm off Not sure if your comment meant to be provocative, or if you just did not think through the ethical considerations of your statement. In fact, I am not sure how well protected octupus as a species are, since they lack a spine.
      - dharma1 10y ago
        I was half joking, but I think there is something to be said for biological computation far beyond the capabilities of silicon, that we may be able to ultimately harness with better BCIs (brain-computer interface). Imagine Goldman Sachs running market predictions on huge banks of invertebrates hooked up to neural network HFT algorithms, literally earning the name "vampire squid" :) I think the ethics of something like this is a very challenging area. Legally, cephalopods already enjoy some protection in the EU against scientific experiments that can cause pain - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2010:276:0033:0079:EN:PDF http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2... However we readily eat squid and octopus, to the point of endangering them. We breed chicken and other animals in factories, in the case of battery hen from hatching to killing them in 72 weeks max (about 10% of their normal life span), in often horrific conditions. Would using octopuses be more ethical than chimps, since they lack a spine and are genetically further from us? What if the octopuses were bred on a farm instead of captured in the wild? What if instead of whole animals, just the nervous system structures were grown in culture?
        wuschel 10y ago
        Thank you for your reply, and making your position understandable. In my humble opinion science has already a problem with communicating to the general public. We are still far away from the comprehension of state, or even computuation in living tissue. The technology underlying silicium based computers is quite primitive compared to biologics. Certainly - these are interesting thoughts in theory - but for the sake of science communications with the general public I am very careful in what context and what way I would articulate these concepts. Animal welfare, and the health of ecosystems, is definitely another minefield of a discussion.
    - deftnerd 10y ago
      I'm not sure about computational, but their optics and the part of the brain that processes it is well used to low light conditions and navigating in space where there isn't just an X and Y axis, but also a Z axis. Octopus are familiar with scuttling around on the seafloor and navigating around crazy terrain. Squid are used to using jet propulsion. I've always thought that both species would be interesting to emulate in silicon for space exploration purposes.
- Shorel 10y ago
  The fact that the sea can and will destroy almost anything we (or another sentient species) can manufacture, seems to be a factor as well.
javajosh 10y ago
Whales have prehensile penises, so while it may seem a bit odd to us, they do have fine manipulators. (That said, in all seriousness I don't think a prehensile tail/trunk/penis would really be enough to develop tools the way we have.)
acz 10y ago
A raccoon: [X] Agile hands, use tools [X] Smart, large brain [X] Omnivore [X] Potentially bipedal [X] Social
- hmsln 10y ago
  The hands do not just need to be agile to manipulate objects, they also need to have an opposable finger. Racoons' "hands" (more like paws) do not have any.
  - danarmak 10y ago
    While an opposable thumb is very useful, I don't think it's necessary for "practicing" intelligence. Cut a man's thumbs off and he'll be seriously impaired, but hardly so much that society couldn't develop tool use, agriculture and technology. I feel opposable thumbs tend to be brought up on the logic of "this is one of many features unique to humans, therefore it must be related to the important feature unique to humans, which is intelligence". In this case it's not even unique to humans: all Old World monkeys and apes have opposable thumbs to one degree or another.

by vacri 10y ago

A dog with the intelligence of a human still has the problem of having no fine manipulators (hands) with which to assist applying their intelligence on to the world around them.

nikofeyn 10y ago

i have often wondered if something like the orca has reached basically the pinnacle of intelligence for an ocean-dwelling animal due to the restrictions of being in water.

meric 10y ago
I would note squid and octopus have fine manipulators (tentacles) and they are relatively intelligent.
- tbarbugli 10y ago
  Luckily for us their life span (at least for octopus) is really short :)
- dharma1 10y ago
  I've often wondered if we had suitable computer-brain interfaces, could we harness octopus brains to process various computational workloads. Like a squishy co-processor
  - lawless123 10y ago
    I wonder could we do the same with humans.
  - wuschel 10y ago
    sarcasm on Don't forget, human brains are squishy, too, and there are many more of them! Sarcasm off Not sure if your comment meant to be provocative, or if you just did not think through the ethical considerations of your statement. In fact, I am not sure how well protected octupus as a species are, since they lack a spine.
    - dharma1 10y ago
      I was half joking, but I think there is something to be said for biological computation far beyond the capabilities of silicon, that we may be able to ultimately harness with better BCIs (brain-computer interface). Imagine Goldman Sachs running market predictions on huge banks of invertebrates hooked up to neural network HFT algorithms, literally earning the name "vampire squid" :) I think the ethics of something like this is a very challenging area. Legally, cephalopods already enjoy some protection in the EU against scientific experiments that can cause pain - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2010:276:0033:0079:EN:PDF http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2... However we readily eat squid and octopus, to the point of endangering them. We breed chicken and other animals in factories, in the case of battery hen from hatching to killing them in 72 weeks max (about 10% of their normal life span), in often horrific conditions. Would using octopuses be more ethical than chimps, since they lack a spine and are genetically further from us? What if the octopuses were bred on a farm instead of captured in the wild? What if instead of whole animals, just the nervous system structures were grown in culture?
      - wuschel 10y ago
        Thank you for your reply, and making your position understandable. In my humble opinion science has already a problem with communicating to the general public. We are still far away from the comprehension of state, or even computuation in living tissue. The technology underlying silicium based computers is quite primitive compared to biologics. Certainly - these are interesting thoughts in theory - but for the sake of science communications with the general public I am very careful in what context and what way I would articulate these concepts. Animal welfare, and the health of ecosystems, is definitely another minefield of a discussion.
  - deftnerd 10y ago
    I'm not sure about computational, but their optics and the part of the brain that processes it is well used to low light conditions and navigating in space where there isn't just an X and Y axis, but also a Z axis. Octopus are familiar with scuttling around on the seafloor and navigating around crazy terrain. Squid are used to using jet propulsion. I've always thought that both species would be interesting to emulate in silicon for space exploration purposes.
Shorel 10y ago
The fact that the sea can and will destroy almost anything we (or another sentient species) can manufacture, seems to be a factor as well.

javajosh 10y ago

Whales have prehensile penises, so while it may seem a bit odd to us, they do have fine manipulators. (That said, in all seriousness I don't think a prehensile tail/trunk/penis would really be enough to develop tools the way we have.)

acz 10y ago

A raccoon: [X] Agile hands, use tools [X] Smart, large brain [X] Omnivore [X] Potentially bipedal [X] Social

hmsln 10y ago
The hands do not just need to be agile to manipulate objects, they also need to have an opposable finger. Racoons' "hands" (more like paws) do not have any.
- danarmak 10y ago
  While an opposable thumb is very useful, I don't think it's necessary for "practicing" intelligence. Cut a man's thumbs off and he'll be seriously impaired, but hardly so much that society couldn't develop tool use, agriculture and technology. I feel opposable thumbs tend to be brought up on the logic of "this is one of many features unique to humans, therefore it must be related to the important feature unique to humans, which is intelligence". In this case it's not even unique to humans: all Old World monkeys and apes have opposable thumbs to one degree or another.