5 ms·

It took me a while to figure this out. I also grew up with italian espresso and I always wondered why all these crafty, specialist roasters (all over the world

by bkkk 10y ago

It took me a while to figure this out. I also grew up with italian espresso and I always wondered why all these crafty, specialist roasters (all over the world) can't do a drinkable espresso and always end up with undrinkable acid in a cup. A lot of italian espresso blends are a mix Arrabica/Robusta. Robusta beans create the sought-after strong/bitterish italien espresso flavor and probably also reduce/mask/balance the acidity. Robusta beans according to the crafty roasters are low quality garbage, and they only care about arrabica beans. Clever marketing by the arrabica industry? Robusta beans have a bad reputation because they are majorly used by cheap coffee brands - but not all robusta beans are the same either. So because third wave/hipster coffee shops only do arrabica, but italian style espresso needs a blend. That's why we can't have a good things. I simply order espresso machiato when i want an espresso, the bit of milk foam reduces acidity to an acceptable level. There is a longer article somewhere on nytimes about this topic. can't find it anymore.

meowface 10y ago
Thoughts on Lavazza? I've settled on them for all of my home espresso making, and I think it tastes great. Definitely open to alternatives, though. (Local specialty shops isn't really an option for me; online ordering preferred.)
- bkkk 10y ago
  Lavazza together with stovetop mocha machines are a solid choice IMO. Plus you can buy that brand all over the world. You won't win any specialty points though...
- sjg007 10y ago
  Not a fan. Illy is by far the best option for espresso. Otherwise the best cheap alternative I've found is actually cafe la llave. Makes a great espresso and americano.
  - meowface 10y ago
    Thanks for the tip. I'm hunting around for alternatives, and will try a few to see if I prefer them to Lavazza.
tailrecursion 10y ago
You may be on to something, and you're right there is Robusta available that is supposed to be good. Another difference is that American crafty houses are roasting lighter than in Italy. For whatever reason, Americans are following a different craft and not optimizing their espresso recipes nearly as well as the Italians and not using the same goals and procedures as they do. And frankly I'm convinced some of the roasters simply don't know what they're doing. They've been told that roasting light is good, and they don't realize that light roasting with espresso brewing is risky. Especially with bean types that are known to be acidic.
toyg 10y ago
A lot of quality Italian coffees are marketed as 100% arabica. This said, I've never worked behind the bar and the Italian food industry is very crafty, so anything's possible.
- bkkk 10y ago
  You sure they are blends for espresso? Italian brands or "american" brands. Not sure about the authority of this page: > Most of these Italian blends (Illy is the exception) clearly make effective and imaginative use of coffees of the robusta species http://www.coffeereview.com/italy-seen-from-america-nine-genuine-italian-and-three-american-espressos/ http://www.coffeereview.com/italy-seen-from-america-nine-gen...
  - toyg 10y ago
    Well, in Italy it's all either for espresso or "moka" (percolator), used more or less interchangeably (with different results of course). http://www.lavazza.co.uk/uk/at-home/blends/caffe-espresso.html http://www.lavazza.co.uk/uk/at-home/blends/caffe-espresso.ht... (Lavazza has a number of other "100% arabica", including Qualità Oro that is more or less the golden standard - pun intended). http://www.segafredo.it/it/a-casa/caffe/moka/emozioni-100-arabica.html http://www.segafredo.it/it/a-casa/caffe/moka/emozioni-100-ar... Illy we already said. I personally don't wander beyond these three vendors (Segafredo is from my hometown, Lavazza is the most ubiquitous, Illy is the mainstream high-quality choice), but there are likely more. To be fair, there are also a lot of Robusta mixes as you go down, but the "100% arabica" brands is firmly at the high end.
regulation_d 10y ago
I am solidly in the third wave camp. I like the origin flavors that I get in a lighter third wave roast that I simply don't get in an Italian shot. I do agree that a bit of milk tones down the acid a bit, and I feel that the origin flavors can through come through even in something like a cortado. Another note, isn't the ratio for espresso in the States different than in Italy. When I was a barista in Chicago we did 1:2 coffee to water. I thought I heard that in Italy 1:3 or 1:4 was more popular. I may be wrong

by bkkk 10y ago

meowface 10y ago

Thoughts on Lavazza? I've settled on them for all of my home espresso making, and I think it tastes great. Definitely open to alternatives, though. (Local specialty shops isn't really an option for me; online ordering preferred.)

bkkk 10y ago
Lavazza together with stovetop mocha machines are a solid choice IMO. Plus you can buy that brand all over the world. You won't win any specialty points though...
sjg007 10y ago
Not a fan. Illy is by far the best option for espresso. Otherwise the best cheap alternative I've found is actually cafe la llave. Makes a great espresso and americano.
- meowface 10y ago
  Thanks for the tip. I'm hunting around for alternatives, and will try a few to see if I prefer them to Lavazza.

tailrecursion 10y ago

You may be on to something, and you're right there is Robusta available that is supposed to be good. Another difference is that American crafty houses are roasting lighter than in Italy. For whatever reason, Americans are following a different craft and not optimizing their espresso recipes nearly as well as the Italians and not using the same goals and procedures as they do. And frankly I'm convinced some of the roasters simply don't know what they're doing. They've been told that roasting light is good, and they don't realize that light roasting with espresso brewing is risky. Especially with bean types that are known to be acidic.

toyg 10y ago

A lot of quality Italian coffees are marketed as 100% arabica. This said, I've never worked behind the bar and the Italian food industry is very crafty, so anything's possible.

bkkk 10y ago
You sure they are blends for espresso? Italian brands or "american" brands. Not sure about the authority of this page: > Most of these Italian blends (Illy is the exception) clearly make effective and imaginative use of coffees of the robusta species http://www.coffeereview.com/italy-seen-from-america-nine-genuine-italian-and-three-american-espressos/ http://www.coffeereview.com/italy-seen-from-america-nine-gen...
- toyg 10y ago
  Well, in Italy it's all either for espresso or "moka" (percolator), used more or less interchangeably (with different results of course). http://www.lavazza.co.uk/uk/at-home/blends/caffe-espresso.html http://www.lavazza.co.uk/uk/at-home/blends/caffe-espresso.ht... (Lavazza has a number of other "100% arabica", including Qualità Oro that is more or less the golden standard - pun intended). http://www.segafredo.it/it/a-casa/caffe/moka/emozioni-100-arabica.html http://www.segafredo.it/it/a-casa/caffe/moka/emozioni-100-ar... Illy we already said. I personally don't wander beyond these three vendors (Segafredo is from my hometown, Lavazza is the most ubiquitous, Illy is the mainstream high-quality choice), but there are likely more. To be fair, there are also a lot of Robusta mixes as you go down, but the "100% arabica" brands is firmly at the high end.

regulation_d 10y ago

I am solidly in the third wave camp. I like the origin flavors that I get in a lighter third wave roast that I simply don't get in an Italian shot. I do agree that a bit of milk tones down the acid a bit, and I feel that the origin flavors can through come through even in something like a cortado. Another note, isn't the ratio for espresso in the States different than in Italy. When I was a barista in Chicago we did 1:2 coffee to water. I thought I heard that in Italy 1:3 or 1:4 was more popular. I may be wrong