5 ms·

Been following this for a few years... more than tame foxes, they killed every fox that didn't carry the specific traits they wanted.

grey413 10y ago
Culling non-desirable stock is an important tool in any breeding program. The essence of evolution is replacement, after all.
Tinyyy 10y ago
It says so in the article. >If the cubs continued to show aggressive or evasive responses, even after significant human contact, they were discarded from the population – meaning they were made into fur coats.
userbinator 10y ago
I suppose you could call it "unnatural selection", but it works on the same principles as Darwin's, only accelerated.
- andrewchambers 10y ago
  I don't think humans are outside nature, it's a curious symbiotic relationship though.
  - smallnamespace 10y ago
    That might be very true, but then the information content of the word 'natural' drops mostly to zero. Since languages tend to drop words when that happens, we would need to find another word that conveys what natural means today -- at which point, why not just use the word as it is?
    - jdavis703 10y ago
      The word "natural" is a misnomer. For example you can buy "natural" fruit, despite the fact that a farmer planted and raised the plant, a chemist invented the chemicals used for pesticide, and a truck brought them to your farmers market. And of course all these things arose from natural systems being modified by us homo sapiens. Perhaps it's better to refer to things as person-made (or man-made if you must), to avoid the ambiguity of the word natural.
      - smallnamespace 10y ago
        Given how deeply intertwined human society is with nature, any distinction between 'artificial' and 'natural' will always be somewhat arbitrary. IMO, expecting precise definitions at this level is a lost cause.
- xj9 10y ago
  I believe "artificial selection" is the commonly accepted term.
  - dagss 10y ago
    And "breeding".
  - wonkaWonka 10y ago
    Maybe he's a fan of The Far Side by Gary Larson? https://www.amazon.com/Unnatural-Selections-Gary-Larson/dp/0836218817 https://www.amazon.com/Unnatural-Selections-Gary-Larson/dp/0...
  - acz 10y ago
    Controlled selection
Zyst 10y ago
Right, the process never really claimed to "tame" foxes. It is an experiment in selective breeding. Which as a goal aims to end up with domesticated foxes. Selective breeding does mean that you take undesirables out of the gene pool, in this case, turning them into fur to be sold which further funds the experiment. Maybe in 10 or 20 years when this is further along I would be interested in seeing how a Fox would do as a pet.
- pvg 10y ago
  The breeding has been going on for 50-odd years.
- aab0 10y ago
  They're already sold as pets. Reportedly they're pretty good pets if you don't mind the price tag.
  - Zyst 10y ago
    I did see that part. However it's still being an 'early adopter'. 10 or 20 years later the risk you take has been dampened because people have had Fox pets for complete life-cycles which means more of the caveats of ownership are known. And the breeding location has had even more time to breed out undesirable behavior. A win-win of sorts as a consumer. Of course with the caveat being that the place could go out of business because of a lack of buyers. You did mention that they are Reportedly pretty good pets, do you have a source on that? I would enjoy reading more on the subject.
    - mahyarm 10y ago
      Youtube videos are a source. One issue I have with them is how high pitched and loud they can be, despite being nice otherwise.
- kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
  They make terrible pets because foxes mark their territory with a scent that is extremely pungent. You basically have to have enough land to keep them penned away from the home.
andrei_says_ 10y ago
The cruelty of this is mind boggling. The fact that they kept the animals in small cages for most of their lives, and expected tame behavior, is also shocking to me.
- trhway 10y ago
  >The cruelty of this is mind boggling. it still going on. Beside all these intelligent pigs and cows, just recently met a dog here in Palo Alto, a Beagle, who was rescued after doing time as a laboratory test subject - her vocal cords were removed so that her bark wouldn't inconvenience the lab employees, her health did took a hit from the lab time and diagnosing her issues and pains with her not being able to voice it makes it much harder. That deep sadness in her eyes... While it doesn't make easy all that torture and suffering we, humans, imposed upon animals back then the reasons for what happened in the past are kind of understandable in the sense that we just didn't know it better. Today we do know, and thus there is absolutely no excuses, nor for animal testing, nor for pork&beef production (to start with), and the minuscule amount of money being invested in producing artificial meat is just a shame.
  - elmigranto 10y ago
    > we just didn't know it better Well, when you struggle for survival daily, you have other things on you mind and priority list, I'd imagine.
    - louhike 10y ago
      It's been a long time since at least some people do not need to think about survival daily.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  > and expected tame behavior They didn't expect tame behavior -- the fact that they succeeded (and in just a few decades) was a surprise.
- steauengeglase 10y ago
fatdog 10y ago
Seems he took idea of "survivorship bias" a bit literally.
wtbob 10y ago
That's how any economical selective-breeding programme is going to work. You gotta do something with the individuals not chosen to breed. Selling them for fur or food (or both), depending on what the market will bear is a rational solution.

grey413 10y ago

Culling non-desirable stock is an important tool in any breeding program. The essence of evolution is replacement, after all.

Tinyyy 10y ago

It says so in the article. >If the cubs continued to show aggressive or evasive responses, even after significant human contact, they were discarded from the population – meaning they were made into fur coats.

userbinator 10y ago

I suppose you could call it "unnatural selection", but it works on the same principles as Darwin's, only accelerated.

andrewchambers 10y ago
I don't think humans are outside nature, it's a curious symbiotic relationship though.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  That might be very true, but then the information content of the word 'natural' drops mostly to zero. Since languages tend to drop words when that happens, we would need to find another word that conveys what natural means today -- at which point, why not just use the word as it is?
  - jdavis703 10y ago
    The word "natural" is a misnomer. For example you can buy "natural" fruit, despite the fact that a farmer planted and raised the plant, a chemist invented the chemicals used for pesticide, and a truck brought them to your farmers market. And of course all these things arose from natural systems being modified by us homo sapiens. Perhaps it's better to refer to things as person-made (or man-made if you must), to avoid the ambiguity of the word natural.
    - smallnamespace 10y ago
      Given how deeply intertwined human society is with nature, any distinction between 'artificial' and 'natural' will always be somewhat arbitrary. IMO, expecting precise definitions at this level is a lost cause.
xj9 10y ago
I believe "artificial selection" is the commonly accepted term.
- dagss 10y ago
  And "breeding".
- wonkaWonka 10y ago
  Maybe he's a fan of The Far Side by Gary Larson? https://www.amazon.com/Unnatural-Selections-Gary-Larson/dp/0836218817 https://www.amazon.com/Unnatural-Selections-Gary-Larson/dp/0...
- acz 10y ago
  Controlled selection

Zyst 10y ago

Right, the process never really claimed to "tame" foxes. It is an experiment in selective breeding. Which as a goal aims to end up with domesticated foxes. Selective breeding does mean that you take undesirables out of the gene pool, in this case, turning them into fur to be sold which further funds the experiment. Maybe in 10 or 20 years when this is further along I would be interested in seeing how a Fox would do as a pet.

pvg 10y ago
The breeding has been going on for 50-odd years.
aab0 10y ago
They're already sold as pets. Reportedly they're pretty good pets if you don't mind the price tag.
- Zyst 10y ago
  I did see that part. However it's still being an 'early adopter'. 10 or 20 years later the risk you take has been dampened because people have had Fox pets for complete life-cycles which means more of the caveats of ownership are known. And the breeding location has had even more time to breed out undesirable behavior. A win-win of sorts as a consumer. Of course with the caveat being that the place could go out of business because of a lack of buyers. You did mention that they are Reportedly pretty good pets, do you have a source on that? I would enjoy reading more on the subject.
  - mahyarm 10y ago
    Youtube videos are a source. One issue I have with them is how high pitched and loud they can be, despite being nice otherwise.
kevin_thibedeau 10y ago
They make terrible pets because foxes mark their territory with a scent that is extremely pungent. You basically have to have enough land to keep them penned away from the home.

andrei_says_ 10y ago

The cruelty of this is mind boggling. The fact that they kept the animals in small cages for most of their lives, and expected tame behavior, is also shocking to me.

trhway 10y ago
>The cruelty of this is mind boggling. it still going on. Beside all these intelligent pigs and cows, just recently met a dog here in Palo Alto, a Beagle, who was rescued after doing time as a laboratory test subject - her vocal cords were removed so that her bark wouldn't inconvenience the lab employees, her health did took a hit from the lab time and diagnosing her issues and pains with her not being able to voice it makes it much harder. That deep sadness in her eyes... While it doesn't make easy all that torture and suffering we, humans, imposed upon animals back then the reasons for what happened in the past are kind of understandable in the sense that we just didn't know it better. Today we do know, and thus there is absolutely no excuses, nor for animal testing, nor for pork&beef production (to start with), and the minuscule amount of money being invested in producing artificial meat is just a shame.
- elmigranto 10y ago
  > we just didn't know it better Well, when you struggle for survival daily, you have other things on you mind and priority list, I'd imagine.
  - louhike 10y ago
    It's been a long time since at least some people do not need to think about survival daily.
smallnamespace 10y ago
> and expected tame behavior They didn't expect tame behavior -- the fact that they succeeded (and in just a few decades) was a surprise.
steauengeglase 10y ago

fatdog 10y ago

Seems he took idea of "survivorship bias" a bit literally.

wtbob 10y ago

That's how any economical selective-breeding programme is going to work. You gotta do something with the individuals not chosen to breed. Selling them for fur or food (or both), depending on what the market will bear is a rational solution.