5 ms·

The Complexity of Coffee (2002) [pdf]

48 points by sridca 10y ago

6stringmerc 10y ago
This is a detailed at times but quite worth following through to read overview. Certainly adds context to why I favor Costa Rican coffee over several others that I've tried over the years. Lots of factors to consider.
pimeys 10y ago
Doesn't go into further details about drip brewing methods. Timing and measuring is important. 55 grams of coffee for one litre of water. At home I'm grinding our coffee every morning and using a Hario V60 filter with a goose-neck kettle and a scale. Works every single time and I'd say the result is better than any espresso I've ever had.
- vixen99 10y ago
  For our simple drip brew (paper filter) we use 66g per liter but that's because the water is cooler - around 85 degrees. This makes for a rich smooth coffee though it might not have the kick most folk enjoy. Be interesting to check which components are absent at this lower temperature. It does seem that the flavor is much more sensitive to the quality of the coffee used if 100 degree water is used.
visarga 10y ago
I thought it was going to be about CoffeeScript or Cafe (deep learning framework).
savara 10y ago
I was expecting Big-Oh notation.
crispyambulance 10y ago
Coffee is indeed complex. Although a great cup can be had with aeropress, drip, pour-over or even a percolator, Espresso is the ultimate form of the beverage. By "espresso" I mean the process of forcing 200F water through a properly ground dose of fresh coffee at 9 bar of pressure for about 25 seconds for a doubleshot. Anything that DOESN'T do that may very well make a fine cup of coffee, but it ain't espresso. Making espresso at home, however, continues to be elusive if you have high standards. The nespresso capsule machines do an OK job but the consumable cost is high and you can't do much to customize it. "prosumer" espresso machines can be hit-or-miss (mostly miss). You really have to tweak stuff to get it right and this includes spending more money than you would think on the proper grinder. Some folks resort to hacking their modest Gaggia's into something greater than the sum of its parts by using PID temperature control (http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/almost-done-hacking-this-old-gaggia-t22181.html http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/almost-done-ha...). I have a Gaggia and hope to mod it someday when the wife is on a long work trip. A while back there was an INFAMOUS kickstarter campaign for an attractive, easily hackable PID controlled espresso machine (the ZPM, I think, https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-control...). It never delivered and pissed a lot of people off (see NYT article, http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/magazine/zpm-espresso-and-the-rage-of-the-jilted-crowdfunder.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/magazine/zpm-espresso-and-...). I think there's room in the market for a home espresso machine that outperforms current prosumer models... but it is a difficult project!
- barrkel 10y ago
  Espresso is generally made with an espresso roast, which is quite a bit more roasting than typical for drip coffee and will burn off many volatile compounds that add a certain amount of complexity. Accept that different coffees are different.
  - crispyambulance 10y ago
    Yes, you're right, roasting and bean have a strong influence. Illy and other specialty coffee vendors also blend beans to optimize the espresso outcome.
- zaroth 10y ago
  > The nespresso capsule machines do an OK job You sound like an expert, but I was very surprised to read this. I bought a Nespresso on Amazon and ended up returning it because the liquid it put out tasted, to me anyway, to be anything but espresso. I tried all the capsules in the sampler pack and disliked all of them quite strongly. I think the biggest turn-off was the fake crema which the machine whipped into existence somehow, but wasn't actually anything like real crema, and ruined the shot in my opinion. There was a front-page post yesterday about the science behind crema, possibly what prompted this post. I encountered my favorite machine in a house I rented for a couple years which had a built-in/plumbed-in Miele CVA6401, and it consistently produced the best single-touch espresso I've had, with no maintenance except descaling. It didn't compare to a very good coffee shop, but for at home espresso, I'm saving up to get one in my kitchen.
  - emanuelev 10y ago
    I've got both a Nespresso and a simple manual Gaggia at home. The Nespresso is just accumulating dust. No matter what capsules you buy it doesn't get any closer to the taste of just average coffee (that would be Lavazza Oro) on the Gaggia machine.
  - crispyambulance 10y ago
    I think the capsule machines produce a passable (OK) espresso that is consistent, you might have gotten a dud or perhaps you're more sensitive to the differences. The biggest problem with those things (if you even like their coffee/crema) is that capsule costs add up quickly. 2 people x 2 shots per day... by the end of the year you might as well have bought a real machine and that only gets more compelling the longer you use it. 2 years of that and you might as well have bought a top-of-line-prosumer-does-everything-even-grind-and-steam machine. The other issue is the beans. Once roasted, beans really need to be ground and used within 4-6 weeks max (even if they're in a sealed bag). The capsules are sealed (probably in nitrogen), but I don't trust that capsules will ever be at the same starting point as freshly roasted beans ground immediately before extraction. Capsules are a good solution for offices where a real espresso machine would be nightmare of maintenance.
dpflan 10y ago
For all you coffee drinkers: Espresso was discussed thoroughly yesterday; here is the HN submission: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12489523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12489523 for a Food Biophysics Paper on Espresso Crema (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3140933/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3140933/). Stay caffeinated!
aporetics 10y ago
Another mark of the (delightful) complexity of coffee are the different "waves" of modern coffee culture (I'm not counting 17th century coffee house culture in Vienna). One way to interpret this phenomenon is that our taste is changing as we discover new things coffee can do. I used to like dark roasted coffee, traditional Italian espresso blends. Now I can't get enough of the single origin lighter roasts, which express just as well (if still differently) with pour-overs as with espresso. But, buyer beware, with the soaring popularity of boutique coffee there's more "bad' boutique coffee than good. Take your time to try a lot of different roasters. That's the fun of it anyway.

48 points by sridca 10y ago

This is a detailed at times but quite worth following through to read overview. Certainly adds context to why I favor Costa Rican coffee over several others that I've tried over the years. Lots of factors to consider.

pimeys 10y ago

Doesn't go into further details about drip brewing methods. Timing and measuring is important. 55 grams of coffee for one litre of water. At home I'm grinding our coffee every morning and using a Hario V60 filter with a goose-neck kettle and a scale. Works every single time and I'd say the result is better than any espresso I've ever had.

vixen99 10y ago
For our simple drip brew (paper filter) we use 66g per liter but that's because the water is cooler - around 85 degrees. This makes for a rich smooth coffee though it might not have the kick most folk enjoy. Be interesting to check which components are absent at this lower temperature. It does seem that the flavor is much more sensitive to the quality of the coffee used if 100 degree water is used.

visarga 10y ago

I thought it was going to be about CoffeeScript or Cafe (deep learning framework).

savara 10y ago

I was expecting Big-Oh notation.

crispyambulance 10y ago

Coffee is indeed complex. Although a great cup can be had with aeropress, drip, pour-over or even a percolator, Espresso is the ultimate form of the beverage. By "espresso" I mean the process of forcing 200F water through a properly ground dose of fresh coffee at 9 bar of pressure for about 25 seconds for a doubleshot. Anything that DOESN'T do that may very well make a fine cup of coffee, but it ain't espresso. Making espresso at home, however, continues to be elusive if you have high standards. The nespresso capsule machines do an OK job but the consumable cost is high and you can't do much to customize it. "prosumer" espresso machines can be hit-or-miss (mostly miss). You really have to tweak stuff to get it right and this includes spending more money than you would think on the proper grinder. Some folks resort to hacking their modest Gaggia's into something greater than the sum of its parts by using PID temperature control (http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/almost-done-hacking-this-old-gaggia-t22181.html http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/almost-done-ha...). I have a Gaggia and hope to mod it someday when the wife is on a long work trip. A while back there was an INFAMOUS kickstarter campaign for an attractive, easily hackable PID controlled espresso machine (the ZPM, I think, https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-control...). It never delivered and pissed a lot of people off (see NYT article, http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/magazine/zpm-espresso-and-the-rage-of-the-jilted-crowdfunder.html http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/magazine/zpm-espresso-and-...). I think there's room in the market for a home espresso machine that outperforms current prosumer models... but it is a difficult project!

barrkel 10y ago
Espresso is generally made with an espresso roast, which is quite a bit more roasting than typical for drip coffee and will burn off many volatile compounds that add a certain amount of complexity. Accept that different coffees are different.
- crispyambulance 10y ago
  Yes, you're right, roasting and bean have a strong influence. Illy and other specialty coffee vendors also blend beans to optimize the espresso outcome.
zaroth 10y ago
> The nespresso capsule machines do an OK job You sound like an expert, but I was very surprised to read this. I bought a Nespresso on Amazon and ended up returning it because the liquid it put out tasted, to me anyway, to be anything but espresso. I tried all the capsules in the sampler pack and disliked all of them quite strongly. I think the biggest turn-off was the fake crema which the machine whipped into existence somehow, but wasn't actually anything like real crema, and ruined the shot in my opinion. There was a front-page post yesterday about the science behind crema, possibly what prompted this post. I encountered my favorite machine in a house I rented for a couple years which had a built-in/plumbed-in Miele CVA6401, and it consistently produced the best single-touch espresso I've had, with no maintenance except descaling. It didn't compare to a very good coffee shop, but for at home espresso, I'm saving up to get one in my kitchen.
- emanuelev 10y ago
  I've got both a Nespresso and a simple manual Gaggia at home. The Nespresso is just accumulating dust. No matter what capsules you buy it doesn't get any closer to the taste of just average coffee (that would be Lavazza Oro) on the Gaggia machine.
- crispyambulance 10y ago
  I think the capsule machines produce a passable (OK) espresso that is consistent, you might have gotten a dud or perhaps you're more sensitive to the differences. The biggest problem with those things (if you even like their coffee/crema) is that capsule costs add up quickly. 2 people x 2 shots per day... by the end of the year you might as well have bought a real machine and that only gets more compelling the longer you use it. 2 years of that and you might as well have bought a top-of-line-prosumer-does-everything-even-grind-and-steam machine. The other issue is the beans. Once roasted, beans really need to be ground and used within 4-6 weeks max (even if they're in a sealed bag). The capsules are sealed (probably in nitrogen), but I don't trust that capsules will ever be at the same starting point as freshly roasted beans ground immediately before extraction. Capsules are a good solution for offices where a real espresso machine would be nightmare of maintenance.

dpflan 10y ago

For all you coffee drinkers: Espresso was discussed thoroughly yesterday; here is the HN submission: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12489523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12489523 for a Food Biophysics Paper on Espresso Crema (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3140933/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3140933/). Stay caffeinated!

aporetics 10y ago

Another mark of the (delightful) complexity of coffee are the different "waves" of modern coffee culture (I'm not counting 17th century coffee house culture in Vienna). One way to interpret this phenomenon is that our taste is changing as we discover new things coffee can do. I used to like dark roasted coffee, traditional Italian espresso blends. Now I can't get enough of the single origin lighter roasts, which express just as well (if still differently) with pour-overs as with espresso. But, buyer beware, with the soaring popularity of boutique coffee there's more "bad' boutique coffee than good. Take your time to try a lot of different roasters. That's the fun of it anyway.