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While I agree with your assessment of Ritual's coffee, with all due respect, your being Italian alone does not establish your competence in judging espresso. I

While I agree with your assessment of Ritual's coffee, with all due respect, your being Italian alone does not establish your competence in judging espresso. I do understand espresso originates from Italy. I'm just allowing for the possibility that some Italians are poor judges of espresso and some non-Italians are excellent judges of same. To my taste as a non-Italian, Blue Bottle espresso is delicious. The baristas at the Blue Bottle location in the Financial District usually make a scrumptious cappuccino.

205guy 10y ago
You're equivocating. A random person knows his culture in a general way and is competent to make comparisons. The op was essentially saying his overall observation of espresso in the US does not overlap with his experience in Italy. Having lived in Europe myself, I also know this to be true. Further, that it happens in many food categories gives credence to the espresso observation: cheese, wine, bread, etc. It goes both ways: hamburgers, Mexican food, Japanese food, etc, in Europe are not the same as you find in the US, Mexico, and Japan. It's not so much a critique as an observation about how hard it is to replicate cultural foods. But I do have to add that people in the US have this attitude that they can borrow and replicate a cultural food, and then they hype it and get smug about--without realizing they haven't captured the essence of the original. How hard can it be to operate an espresso machine after all? Well, very hard if you include selecting and blending beans from around the world, roasting them right, grinding them just so, and dosing and tamping it right.
- horshod 10y ago
  I am from India, living in the US and I have seen tons of Indian snobs saying the Indian food in the US is just not good enough. I just can't agree. I can imagine that the probability of finding good espresso may be much higher in Italy - maybe every corner cafe makes only the best coffee. But the idea that good espresso cannot be found anywhere in the US (or SFO), which is home to many Europeans, just seems a bit of an exaggeration.
  - acchow 10y ago
    Typically, coffee in Europe isn't the artisanal, single origin stuff one is probably used to on America's west coast. It's a different food. Especially in Italy, where they also traditionally mix in Robusta beans with the Arabica.
    - sjg007 10y ago
      Robusta produces a better cream but is flat in taste. Arabica gives you the hops to draw the analogy.
      - inflagranti 10y ago
        Flat = nuanced!? Because definitely with beer I find it very questionable how breweries out-compete each other with making hoppier and hoppier beers that get completely dominated by it. And the selection of one be all and end all criteria, in case of beer hops, in case of coffee the pureness of the beans I guess, that everyone measures itself on, seems actually very American to me.
  - Ar-Curunir 10y ago
    Most Indian restaurants do not serve common Indian cuisine; no average Indian consumes saag paneer or "paneer tikka masala" on a regular basis. North Indians, on the other hand, have things like daal regularly; daals in Indian restaurants in the US suck almost universally. I haven't even seen a restaurant that serves rajma. Maybe South Indian food is different, but I haven't had good North Indian food anywhere in the US.
    - horshod 10y ago
      I grew up in Puné and almost all restaurants served stuff like paneer tikka masala. That's what going out to eat was for us. At home we had home cooked Maharashtrian food. In the restaurants we had "North Indian" fancy dishes lol which were almost never made at home (So I've never had daal in restaurants). I see it the same way here. A North Indian may view it differently.
- Retric 10y ago
  It's not a difficult process, the problem is there is little incentive to get to make it 'correctly'. Good pizza for example costs significantly more to make and you can only afford to serve it if you customers are willing to pay for it. PS: Chocolate seems to be the worst offender, IMO. Good chocolate is pricy and has a poor shelf life, but tastes so much better than even expencive chocolate you can find in the US. Even when you can find a good brand companies just tend to make worse product over time, because that's how you maximize profit.
msandford 10y ago
It's hilarious watching people argue over preferences as though they were facts. Person 1: Steak is the best food! Person 2: No, pasta is the best food! Person 1: I am from Kobe Japan and steak is best! Person 2: I am from Italy and pasta is best! And so it goes. Both people are right and wrong at the same time. Preferences aren't universal facts.
- Swizec 10y ago
  How is steak pasta still not a thing? It's so obvious.

205guy 10y ago

You're equivocating. A random person knows his culture in a general way and is competent to make comparisons. The op was essentially saying his overall observation of espresso in the US does not overlap with his experience in Italy. Having lived in Europe myself, I also know this to be true. Further, that it happens in many food categories gives credence to the espresso observation: cheese, wine, bread, etc. It goes both ways: hamburgers, Mexican food, Japanese food, etc, in Europe are not the same as you find in the US, Mexico, and Japan. It's not so much a critique as an observation about how hard it is to replicate cultural foods. But I do have to add that people in the US have this attitude that they can borrow and replicate a cultural food, and then they hype it and get smug about--without realizing they haven't captured the essence of the original. How hard can it be to operate an espresso machine after all? Well, very hard if you include selecting and blending beans from around the world, roasting them right, grinding them just so, and dosing and tamping it right.

horshod 10y ago
I am from India, living in the US and I have seen tons of Indian snobs saying the Indian food in the US is just not good enough. I just can't agree. I can imagine that the probability of finding good espresso may be much higher in Italy - maybe every corner cafe makes only the best coffee. But the idea that good espresso cannot be found anywhere in the US (or SFO), which is home to many Europeans, just seems a bit of an exaggeration.
- acchow 10y ago
  Typically, coffee in Europe isn't the artisanal, single origin stuff one is probably used to on America's west coast. It's a different food. Especially in Italy, where they also traditionally mix in Robusta beans with the Arabica.
  - sjg007 10y ago
    Robusta produces a better cream but is flat in taste. Arabica gives you the hops to draw the analogy.
    - inflagranti 10y ago
      Flat = nuanced!? Because definitely with beer I find it very questionable how breweries out-compete each other with making hoppier and hoppier beers that get completely dominated by it. And the selection of one be all and end all criteria, in case of beer hops, in case of coffee the pureness of the beans I guess, that everyone measures itself on, seems actually very American to me.
- Ar-Curunir 10y ago
  Most Indian restaurants do not serve common Indian cuisine; no average Indian consumes saag paneer or "paneer tikka masala" on a regular basis. North Indians, on the other hand, have things like daal regularly; daals in Indian restaurants in the US suck almost universally. I haven't even seen a restaurant that serves rajma. Maybe South Indian food is different, but I haven't had good North Indian food anywhere in the US.
  - horshod 10y ago
    I grew up in Puné and almost all restaurants served stuff like paneer tikka masala. That's what going out to eat was for us. At home we had home cooked Maharashtrian food. In the restaurants we had "North Indian" fancy dishes lol which were almost never made at home (So I've never had daal in restaurants). I see it the same way here. A North Indian may view it differently.
Retric 10y ago
It's not a difficult process, the problem is there is little incentive to get to make it 'correctly'. Good pizza for example costs significantly more to make and you can only afford to serve it if you customers are willing to pay for it. PS: Chocolate seems to be the worst offender, IMO. Good chocolate is pricy and has a poor shelf life, but tastes so much better than even expencive chocolate you can find in the US. Even when you can find a good brand companies just tend to make worse product over time, because that's how you maximize profit.

msandford 10y ago

It's hilarious watching people argue over preferences as though they were facts. Person 1: Steak is the best food! Person 2: No, pasta is the best food! Person 1: I am from Kobe Japan and steak is best! Person 2: I am from Italy and pasta is best! And so it goes. Both people are right and wrong at the same time. Preferences aren't universal facts.

Swizec 10y ago
How is steak pasta still not a thing? It's so obvious.