7 ms·

Ritual's coffee is terrible: acidic, unpleasant to the palate and lacking in aroma. I hope your coffee is better than theirs. - disclosure: I'm Italian and I b

Ritual's coffee is terrible: acidic, unpleasant to the palate and lacking in aroma. I hope your coffee is better than theirs. - disclosure: I'm Italian and I believe espresso in San Francisco sucks almost universally

BurningFrog 10y ago
Could it be that taste differs in different parts of the world? Just trying to have everyone get along and get to be right.
- js2 10y ago
  American coffee snob here (not that I necessarily have good taste though): I was blown away by the espresso in Italy. On a two-week trip, every espresso I had there was better than any espresso I've had in the U.S. Which isn't to say I haven't had great coffee in America, just not great espresso. I think mostly Americans just don't care about espresso. Pet peeve: high-end restaurants in the U.S. mostly don't care about the coffee they serve. A high-end restauarant will employ a bar tender, a pasty chef, a somellier, but not a barista. So you enjoy a fantastic meal and then when you order an espresso at the end, you get something the server pulled out of an automatic machine. Nooo, why!?
  - jowiar 10y ago
    Restaurants are starting to get it. I've been to a handful of places in the past couple years where I left thinking "somebody gave a shit!" (which is really all it takes) -- Places that come to mind are Vetri, Osteria, and Zahav in Philly, Agern and NoMad in NYC.
  - mickeypi 10y ago
    Couldn't agree more on the pet peeve. I've stopped having coffee after a great meal at a restaurant because inevitably they'll ruin it with a cup of something awful. Even in places like Vancouver, SF or Seattle with a very strong coffee culture, and where pretty much anyone in the food industry knows a good coffee.
  - vvdcect 10y ago
    Yup the main reasons high end restaurants do this is because of consistency, a cup of coffee from a nespresso would always yield a 6/10 cup.
  - WilliamDhalgren 10y ago
    So if not espresso, what kind of coffee do Americans drink, but that's any good? I'm just very used to italian-style espresso in the cafés and turkish at home, as that's the cultural norm around here (croatian adriatic coast; basically ex-venetian colony ;) ). I'd like to give other styles a shot, but only provided they're worth a damn. Can't say I've been impressed by whatever the muck they serve at McDonald's is, or by home drip machines. Nor instant ofc...
    - js2 10y ago
      My morning cup of joe is usually made in an Aeropress from freshly roasted and ground beans. Typically Counter Culture or Larry's beans (local suppliers), light roast. I use a burr grinder. I sometimes also make Turkish w/o the cardamon, usually with a bit of sugar, maybe with a splash of cream (blasphemy I know). But I will also occasionally use a French press, a Chemex, or make cold brew. My wife uses a Moka pot, and I will sometimes use that to make a Cubano, though it's not nearly as good as a Cubano made in a pump espresso machine. It just depends on my mood. I gave up trying to make good espresso at home after getting frustrated with a Gaggia machine. My fault, not the machine's, but in the end I decided it was too much effort for 1-2 oz of coffee. :-( To answer your question: as long as the beans are freshly roasted and ground, and the coffee made with care, I'm not particularly partial to any technique. You can even have a mighty fine cup of drip coffee. I think espresso is just a much more demanding technique to make well. About instant: I know Israelis and South Africans who prefer it, but no Americans. Maybe the worst way to brew coffee: percolators. Oh the horror.
- tedmiston 10y ago
  Well, that, and if I'm not mistaken, the "default" coffee in Italy is a shot of espresso compared to the cup of filter coffee most of us drink in the US every day.
CalRobert 10y ago
Maybe it's a matter of preference? I really miss just having a big pot of drip coffee. The machines where I am now (Europe, but not a part known for its cuisine) are all these Gaggia things that make a lot of noise and take ages to produce a cup of kind of flavorless, mediocre coffee, even with decent(ish) beans.
silverlake 10y ago
Third wave espresso is acidic on purpose.
- jowiar 10y ago
  It's more than that though. "Citrus" was a flavor that roasters were trying to bring out, which is fine (and interesting). However, what happened with hoppiness in IPAs happened with acidity in American espresso. As roasters' palates got accustomed to a particular roast, they needed to keep going further in that direction to create a similar flavor. Thus, escalating acidity, and the rise of the sour bombs in 2011 or so. I feel like things have tapered off a bit in the past couple years (at least on the East coast).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jrmg 10y ago
This reminds me of a Medium post I read recently, "Why Espressos in America are not Good?": https://medium.com/@sinzone/why-is-espresso-in-america-so-bad-b0606d8ddeb5#.bqlpnluon https://medium.com/@sinzone/why-is-espresso-in-america-so-ba... In my opinion the only true Italian Espresso in the Bay Area is made at Cavalli Caffe. It’s a simple small bar with no interior design, no fancy coffee beans, and no extravagant machines. Cavalli is owned and operated by one man from Naples.
aarmenante 10y ago
I feel like sometimes I'm the only person who does not care for ritual or bluebottle. I usually just keep my mouth shut in fear of people freaking out. Wayyyy too acidic.
- ihaveajob 10y ago
  Filtered coffee is very different from espresso. For a long time, I used to believe the old adagio that American coffee is just too weak, but then I started to appreciate it for what it is, and I enjoy it a lot. I wouldn't take the fruity (acidic?) coffee that Ritual and their cadre prepare as espresso, but as pour over, I haven't had anything that compares.
- tedmiston 10y ago
  I haven't been to Ritual, but for places like Blue Bottle, Sightglass, Four Barrel, etc it might have to due with them using pretty light roasts combined with a V60 (or the slightly different pour over brewer that Blue Bottle uses). I like my coffee bright / acidic though.
bkkk 10y ago
It took me a while to figure this out. I also grew up with italian espresso and I always wondered why all these crafty, specialist roasters (all over the world) can't do a drinkable espresso and always end up with undrinkable acid in a cup. A lot of italian espresso blends are a mix Arrabica/Robusta. Robusta beans create the sought-after strong/bitterish italien espresso flavor and probably also reduce/mask/balance the acidity. Robusta beans according to the crafty roasters are low quality garbage, and they only care about arrabica beans. Clever marketing by the arrabica industry? Robusta beans have a bad reputation because they are majorly used by cheap coffee brands - but not all robusta beans are the same either. So because third wave/hipster coffee shops only do arrabica, but italian style espresso needs a blend. That's why we can't have a good things. I simply order espresso machiato when i want an espresso, the bit of milk foam reduces acidity to an acceptable level. There is a longer article somewhere on nytimes about this topic. can't find it anymore.
- meowface 10y ago
  Thoughts on Lavazza? I've settled on them for all of my home espresso making, and I think it tastes great. Definitely open to alternatives, though. (Local specialty shops isn't really an option for me; online ordering preferred.)
  - bkkk 10y ago
    Lavazza together with stovetop mocha machines are a solid choice IMO. Plus you can buy that brand all over the world. You won't win any specialty points though...
  - sjg007 10y ago
    Not a fan. Illy is by far the best option for espresso. Otherwise the best cheap alternative I've found is actually cafe la llave. Makes a great espresso and americano.
    - meowface 10y ago
      Thanks for the tip. I'm hunting around for alternatives, and will try a few to see if I prefer them to Lavazza.
HoppedUpMenace 10y ago
Their single origin Sweet Tooth espresso was pretty amazing when I had it last year, you could really taste the cantaloupe in that particular version. Their Seasonal Espresso was not bad either but I did make both at home as opposed to drinking them inside a Ritual shop.
- rconti 10y ago
  I actually quite like Ritual. shrug
saosebastiao 10y ago
Interesting. I don't consider myself to have a very refined coffee palate, but I came away with the same impression. I wonder if you've tried any of the Seattle espresso shops: Vita, Vivace, Cherry Street, Millstead, Slate, Ballard Coffee Works...
anarazel 10y ago
I've not found a lot of good espresso after moving to SF either. The best, albeit a bit overpriced, so far is at Reveille's on 4th. If you have suggestions..
- alphakappa 10y ago
  Yes - Grand on 23rd and Mission. It's a tiny hole in the wall and they use four barrel beans I believe, but they make a damn good and consistent espresso.
mistersquid 10y ago
While I agree with your assessment of Ritual's coffee, with all due respect, your being Italian alone does not establish your competence in judging espresso. I do understand espresso originates from Italy. I'm just allowing for the possibility that some Italians are poor judges of espresso and some non-Italians are excellent judges of same. To my taste as a non-Italian, Blue Bottle espresso is delicious. The baristas at the Blue Bottle location in the Financial District usually make a scrumptious cappuccino.
- 205guy 10y ago
  You're equivocating. A random person knows his culture in a general way and is competent to make comparisons. The op was essentially saying his overall observation of espresso in the US does not overlap with his experience in Italy. Having lived in Europe myself, I also know this to be true. Further, that it happens in many food categories gives credence to the espresso observation: cheese, wine, bread, etc. It goes both ways: hamburgers, Mexican food, Japanese food, etc, in Europe are not the same as you find in the US, Mexico, and Japan. It's not so much a critique as an observation about how hard it is to replicate cultural foods. But I do have to add that people in the US have this attitude that they can borrow and replicate a cultural food, and then they hype it and get smug about--without realizing they haven't captured the essence of the original. How hard can it be to operate an espresso machine after all? Well, very hard if you include selecting and blending beans from around the world, roasting them right, grinding them just so, and dosing and tamping it right.
  - horshod 10y ago
    I am from India, living in the US and I have seen tons of Indian snobs saying the Indian food in the US is just not good enough. I just can't agree. I can imagine that the probability of finding good espresso may be much higher in Italy - maybe every corner cafe makes only the best coffee. But the idea that good espresso cannot be found anywhere in the US (or SFO), which is home to many Europeans, just seems a bit of an exaggeration.
    - acchow 10y ago

BurningFrog 10y ago

Could it be that taste differs in different parts of the world? Just trying to have everyone get along and get to be right.

js2 10y ago
American coffee snob here (not that I necessarily have good taste though): I was blown away by the espresso in Italy. On a two-week trip, every espresso I had there was better than any espresso I've had in the U.S. Which isn't to say I haven't had great coffee in America, just not great espresso. I think mostly Americans just don't care about espresso. Pet peeve: high-end restaurants in the U.S. mostly don't care about the coffee they serve. A high-end restauarant will employ a bar tender, a pasty chef, a somellier, but not a barista. So you enjoy a fantastic meal and then when you order an espresso at the end, you get something the server pulled out of an automatic machine. Nooo, why!?
- jowiar 10y ago
  Restaurants are starting to get it. I've been to a handful of places in the past couple years where I left thinking "somebody gave a shit!" (which is really all it takes) -- Places that come to mind are Vetri, Osteria, and Zahav in Philly, Agern and NoMad in NYC.
- mickeypi 10y ago
  Couldn't agree more on the pet peeve. I've stopped having coffee after a great meal at a restaurant because inevitably they'll ruin it with a cup of something awful. Even in places like Vancouver, SF or Seattle with a very strong coffee culture, and where pretty much anyone in the food industry knows a good coffee.
- vvdcect 10y ago
  Yup the main reasons high end restaurants do this is because of consistency, a cup of coffee from a nespresso would always yield a 6/10 cup.
- WilliamDhalgren 10y ago
  So if not espresso, what kind of coffee do Americans drink, but that's any good? I'm just very used to italian-style espresso in the cafés and turkish at home, as that's the cultural norm around here (croatian adriatic coast; basically ex-venetian colony ;) ). I'd like to give other styles a shot, but only provided they're worth a damn. Can't say I've been impressed by whatever the muck they serve at McDonald's is, or by home drip machines. Nor instant ofc...
  - js2 10y ago
    My morning cup of joe is usually made in an Aeropress from freshly roasted and ground beans. Typically Counter Culture or Larry's beans (local suppliers), light roast. I use a burr grinder. I sometimes also make Turkish w/o the cardamon, usually with a bit of sugar, maybe with a splash of cream (blasphemy I know). But I will also occasionally use a French press, a Chemex, or make cold brew. My wife uses a Moka pot, and I will sometimes use that to make a Cubano, though it's not nearly as good as a Cubano made in a pump espresso machine. It just depends on my mood. I gave up trying to make good espresso at home after getting frustrated with a Gaggia machine. My fault, not the machine's, but in the end I decided it was too much effort for 1-2 oz of coffee. :-( To answer your question: as long as the beans are freshly roasted and ground, and the coffee made with care, I'm not particularly partial to any technique. You can even have a mighty fine cup of drip coffee. I think espresso is just a much more demanding technique to make well. About instant: I know Israelis and South Africans who prefer it, but no Americans. Maybe the worst way to brew coffee: percolators. Oh the horror.
tedmiston 10y ago
Well, that, and if I'm not mistaken, the "default" coffee in Italy is a shot of espresso compared to the cup of filter coffee most of us drink in the US every day.

CalRobert 10y ago

Maybe it's a matter of preference? I really miss just having a big pot of drip coffee. The machines where I am now (Europe, but not a part known for its cuisine) are all these Gaggia things that make a lot of noise and take ages to produce a cup of kind of flavorless, mediocre coffee, even with decent(ish) beans.

silverlake 10y ago

Third wave espresso is acidic on purpose.

jowiar 10y ago
It's more than that though. "Citrus" was a flavor that roasters were trying to bring out, which is fine (and interesting). However, what happened with hoppiness in IPAs happened with acidity in American espresso. As roasters' palates got accustomed to a particular roast, they needed to keep going further in that direction to create a similar flavor. Thus, escalating acidity, and the rise of the sour bombs in 2011 or so. I feel like things have tapered off a bit in the past couple years (at least on the East coast).

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

jrmg 10y ago

This reminds me of a Medium post I read recently, "Why Espressos in America are not Good?": https://medium.com/@sinzone/why-is-espresso-in-america-so-bad-b0606d8ddeb5#.bqlpnluon https://medium.com/@sinzone/why-is-espresso-in-america-so-ba... In my opinion the only true Italian Espresso in the Bay Area is made at Cavalli Caffe. It’s a simple small bar with no interior design, no fancy coffee beans, and no extravagant machines. Cavalli is owned and operated by one man from Naples.

aarmenante 10y ago

I feel like sometimes I'm the only person who does not care for ritual or bluebottle. I usually just keep my mouth shut in fear of people freaking out. Wayyyy too acidic.

ihaveajob 10y ago
Filtered coffee is very different from espresso. For a long time, I used to believe the old adagio that American coffee is just too weak, but then I started to appreciate it for what it is, and I enjoy it a lot. I wouldn't take the fruity (acidic?) coffee that Ritual and their cadre prepare as espresso, but as pour over, I haven't had anything that compares.
tedmiston 10y ago
I haven't been to Ritual, but for places like Blue Bottle, Sightglass, Four Barrel, etc it might have to due with them using pretty light roasts combined with a V60 (or the slightly different pour over brewer that Blue Bottle uses). I like my coffee bright / acidic though.

bkkk 10y ago

It took me a while to figure this out. I also grew up with italian espresso and I always wondered why all these crafty, specialist roasters (all over the world) can't do a drinkable espresso and always end up with undrinkable acid in a cup. A lot of italian espresso blends are a mix Arrabica/Robusta. Robusta beans create the sought-after strong/bitterish italien espresso flavor and probably also reduce/mask/balance the acidity. Robusta beans according to the crafty roasters are low quality garbage, and they only care about arrabica beans. Clever marketing by the arrabica industry? Robusta beans have a bad reputation because they are majorly used by cheap coffee brands - but not all robusta beans are the same either. So because third wave/hipster coffee shops only do arrabica, but italian style espresso needs a blend. That's why we can't have a good things. I simply order espresso machiato when i want an espresso, the bit of milk foam reduces acidity to an acceptable level. There is a longer article somewhere on nytimes about this topic. can't find it anymore.

meowface 10y ago
Thoughts on Lavazza? I've settled on them for all of my home espresso making, and I think it tastes great. Definitely open to alternatives, though. (Local specialty shops isn't really an option for me; online ordering preferred.)
- bkkk 10y ago
  Lavazza together with stovetop mocha machines are a solid choice IMO. Plus you can buy that brand all over the world. You won't win any specialty points though...
- sjg007 10y ago
  Not a fan. Illy is by far the best option for espresso. Otherwise the best cheap alternative I've found is actually cafe la llave. Makes a great espresso and americano.
  - meowface 10y ago
    Thanks for the tip. I'm hunting around for alternatives, and will try a few to see if I prefer them to Lavazza.

HoppedUpMenace 10y ago

Their single origin Sweet Tooth espresso was pretty amazing when I had it last year, you could really taste the cantaloupe in that particular version. Their Seasonal Espresso was not bad either but I did make both at home as opposed to drinking them inside a Ritual shop.

rconti 10y ago
I actually quite like Ritual. shrug

saosebastiao 10y ago

Interesting. I don't consider myself to have a very refined coffee palate, but I came away with the same impression. I wonder if you've tried any of the Seattle espresso shops: Vita, Vivace, Cherry Street, Millstead, Slate, Ballard Coffee Works...

anarazel 10y ago

I've not found a lot of good espresso after moving to SF either. The best, albeit a bit overpriced, so far is at Reveille's on 4th. If you have suggestions..

alphakappa 10y ago
Yes - Grand on 23rd and Mission. It's a tiny hole in the wall and they use four barrel beans I believe, but they make a damn good and consistent espresso.

mistersquid 10y ago

While I agree with your assessment of Ritual's coffee, with all due respect, your being Italian alone does not establish your competence in judging espresso. I do understand espresso originates from Italy. I'm just allowing for the possibility that some Italians are poor judges of espresso and some non-Italians are excellent judges of same. To my taste as a non-Italian, Blue Bottle espresso is delicious. The baristas at the Blue Bottle location in the Financial District usually make a scrumptious cappuccino.

205guy 10y ago
You're equivocating. A random person knows his culture in a general way and is competent to make comparisons. The op was essentially saying his overall observation of espresso in the US does not overlap with his experience in Italy. Having lived in Europe myself, I also know this to be true. Further, that it happens in many food categories gives credence to the espresso observation: cheese, wine, bread, etc. It goes both ways: hamburgers, Mexican food, Japanese food, etc, in Europe are not the same as you find in the US, Mexico, and Japan. It's not so much a critique as an observation about how hard it is to replicate cultural foods. But I do have to add that people in the US have this attitude that they can borrow and replicate a cultural food, and then they hype it and get smug about--without realizing they haven't captured the essence of the original. How hard can it be to operate an espresso machine after all? Well, very hard if you include selecting and blending beans from around the world, roasting them right, grinding them just so, and dosing and tamping it right.
- horshod 10y ago
  I am from India, living in the US and I have seen tons of Indian snobs saying the Indian food in the US is just not good enough. I just can't agree. I can imagine that the probability of finding good espresso may be much higher in Italy - maybe every corner cafe makes only the best coffee. But the idea that good espresso cannot be found anywhere in the US (or SFO), which is home to many Europeans, just seems a bit of an exaggeration.
  - acchow 10y ago