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Haven't finished the article, but it boggles my mind how anyone would be afraid of Chinese competition because Apple copied wechat and removed the headphone jac

Haven't finished the article, but it boggles my mind how anyone would be afraid of Chinese competition because Apple copied wechat and removed the headphone jack second. The features they are talking about where available in most other messaging apps, notably Facebook messenger, ever since Line and other Korean [Edit: LINE is Japanese] apps introduced it (there may be an even earlier case, it has been around so long). Apple plays catch up from time to time, nothing new to see here. And removing the headphone jack is not innovation. Will continue reading the article, but if this is what America thinks is innovation, that's the dangerous thing, not China. Besides, I'm as patriotic as the next American, but if the Chinese start making better products and we start copying them for a change is that really a bad thing besides some jingoist pride? Letting Chinese companies foot the R&D bill in a few cases would certainly be cheaper. As long as we continue to attempt to compete, and don't throw our hands up because they had chat stickers before one of our American companies.

arcanus 10y ago
> I'm as patriotic as the next American, but if the Chinese start making better products and we start copying them for a change is that really a bad thing No, it would be a great thing. Competition is always good, that is practically an axiom of capitalism. I expect serious competition to enhance R+D, not diminish it. No CEO buys back shares or increases dividends when they have a serious competitor. They pour money into R+D, new equipment and strategic acquisitions.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  "Competition is good" may or may not be true. It depends. A rough rule of thumb is that a new idea has to be 10x better than the old idea to be worth it. The count of 10x ideas is dwindling.
- conanbatt 10y ago
  I've had to make a similar argument in another related thread. Its like the question of "who is #1" and "whats best for you" are mingled. If china comes out strong with new products , cheaper prices, more R&D , as a consumer we will all greatly benefit!
- gaius 10y ago
  Competition is good. Losing a competition is not so good. History is littered with countries, cultures, civilizations that lost. And I suspect there were many more that are simply forgotten until an archaeologist digs them up!
  - arcanus 10y ago
    Agreed. At the same time, those cultures were objectively 'worse'. They were xenophobic. They were sexist. They were racist. They were superstitious. Disruption happens at the level of nations. The USA has reinvented itself many times before, and will do so again. So far, in the competition between the USA and China, China has moved much more towards a capitalistic, free society than the USA has moved towards totalitarianism. I'm not stating it is a guarantee. But it is a risk worth taking. And I suspect you agree. And by all means, let's not only end up as an interesting archaelogical dig.
  - arethuza 10y ago
    Well the UK was the leading world power up to about a century ago and we've managed to survive loss of pre-eminence in a reasonably good state.
    - gaius 10y ago
      I'd argue more recently, up 'til Suez, and we were fortunately out-competed by a notional ally - it could have gone very differently if the USSR was the one to out-produce or out-innovate us.
    - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
      To paint with a very broad brush, the U.K. would hardly be in the position it is in if it hadn't imperialized so heavily. English is the world's dominant language, meaning everyone else has to learn English, instead of the English having to learn Chinese, Polish, Spanish, etc. The old connections make London a prime financial center, and even that future is questionable given Brexit and the prominence of alternatives like New York and Singapore. The UK's edge and reach comes from its cultural products. Once the bankers have gone and the techies find better qualities of life away from London's shuttered clubs and the UK's draconian survellience and drug laws, all that's left is James Bond and Harry Potter. I hope I don't come across as being too pessimistic about England's future, but just as it is in a reasonably good state now, it could just as easily be gearing up for a nasty nosedive.
- tenkabuto 10y ago
  Competition is always good for consumers, not producers. It brings lower prices for goods or services, but provides less freedom for producers.
- ashark 10y ago
  > Competition is always good, that is practically an axiom of capitalism. Not quite. Taken too far it leaves nothing for R&D. Fortunately this tends to balance over time, in part because as margins drop small players are squeezed out, competition cools, and margins stabilize. In fact, one of the biggest success stories for central planning and protectionism—postwar Japan—involved removing domestic competition for a handful of megacorps to let them charge higher prices, then encouraging them to pool R&D resources so they could Go Forth and Conquer. So, as nice as competition is, always is an overstatement.
hohenheim 10y ago
I agree. The article tries to bring out an important issue: USA immigration policies need changes. But it starts the argument using unsubstantial cases.
sdenton4 10y ago
Agreed, but it's basically a dumb leader on an article that's actually about immigration policy...
tezza 10y ago
Check out the ReSpeaker Kickstarter project The project is clearly run by some brilliant ESL techies, who have a truly funky product: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/seeed/respeaker-an-open-modular-voice-interface-to-hack/description https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/seeed/respeaker-an-open... I was well chuffed to see fresh ideas. As you say, why does it matter if it comes from a US company ?
xiaoma 10y ago
Despite being a subsidiary of Naver, LINE is a Japanese company.
- mattnewton 10y ago
  Thanks, I wanted to say Japanese, but changed it to Korean with after quick googling. Guess it was too quick.
richmarr 10y ago
> ...if the Chinese start making better products... China is ahead in biotech, IoT, AR, and a bunch of other areas, and have grown the only serious IaaS competitor to Amazon. The future is here already, much the rest of the world (particularly in the US) has its head in the sand, wheeling out the tired old trope about China being a nation of copycats. If that were ever true, it isn't true anymore.
- mattnewton 10y ago
  I believe it. It just doesn't make sense that everyone would move to the US before starting their idea, the sheer volume of people in China means that they will have so much personal capital they should be leading a lot of these fields. Everyone starts as "a copycat". It doesn't matter; consumers benefit from competition.
ArkyBeagle 10y ago
R&D should have a positive multiplier else why do it at all? Much of what's called "R&D" sort of isn't - it's not that easy to disentangle maintenance from development. The H1B visa encourages headcount-think, which is a "policy smell" in tech development. At least some people I've known who've had H1B visas felt it was exploitative.

arcanus 10y ago

> I'm as patriotic as the next American, but if the Chinese start making better products and we start copying them for a change is that really a bad thing No, it would be a great thing. Competition is always good, that is practically an axiom of capitalism. I expect serious competition to enhance R+D, not diminish it. No CEO buys back shares or increases dividends when they have a serious competitor. They pour money into R+D, new equipment and strategic acquisitions.

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
"Competition is good" may or may not be true. It depends. A rough rule of thumb is that a new idea has to be 10x better than the old idea to be worth it. The count of 10x ideas is dwindling.
conanbatt 10y ago
I've had to make a similar argument in another related thread. Its like the question of "who is #1" and "whats best for you" are mingled. If china comes out strong with new products , cheaper prices, more R&D , as a consumer we will all greatly benefit!
gaius 10y ago
Competition is good. Losing a competition is not so good. History is littered with countries, cultures, civilizations that lost. And I suspect there were many more that are simply forgotten until an archaeologist digs them up!
- arcanus 10y ago
  Agreed. At the same time, those cultures were objectively 'worse'. They were xenophobic. They were sexist. They were racist. They were superstitious. Disruption happens at the level of nations. The USA has reinvented itself many times before, and will do so again. So far, in the competition between the USA and China, China has moved much more towards a capitalistic, free society than the USA has moved towards totalitarianism. I'm not stating it is a guarantee. But it is a risk worth taking. And I suspect you agree. And by all means, let's not only end up as an interesting archaelogical dig.
- arethuza 10y ago
  Well the UK was the leading world power up to about a century ago and we've managed to survive loss of pre-eminence in a reasonably good state.
  - gaius 10y ago
    I'd argue more recently, up 'til Suez, and we were fortunately out-competed by a notional ally - it could have gone very differently if the USSR was the one to out-produce or out-innovate us.
  - rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
    To paint with a very broad brush, the U.K. would hardly be in the position it is in if it hadn't imperialized so heavily. English is the world's dominant language, meaning everyone else has to learn English, instead of the English having to learn Chinese, Polish, Spanish, etc. The old connections make London a prime financial center, and even that future is questionable given Brexit and the prominence of alternatives like New York and Singapore. The UK's edge and reach comes from its cultural products. Once the bankers have gone and the techies find better qualities of life away from London's shuttered clubs and the UK's draconian survellience and drug laws, all that's left is James Bond and Harry Potter. I hope I don't come across as being too pessimistic about England's future, but just as it is in a reasonably good state now, it could just as easily be gearing up for a nasty nosedive.
tenkabuto 10y ago
Competition is always good for consumers, not producers. It brings lower prices for goods or services, but provides less freedom for producers.
ashark 10y ago
> Competition is always good, that is practically an axiom of capitalism. Not quite. Taken too far it leaves nothing for R&D. Fortunately this tends to balance over time, in part because as margins drop small players are squeezed out, competition cools, and margins stabilize. In fact, one of the biggest success stories for central planning and protectionism—postwar Japan—involved removing domestic competition for a handful of megacorps to let them charge higher prices, then encouraging them to pool R&D resources so they could Go Forth and Conquer. So, as nice as competition is, always is an overstatement.

hohenheim 10y ago

I agree. The article tries to bring out an important issue: USA immigration policies need changes. But it starts the argument using unsubstantial cases.

sdenton4 10y ago

Agreed, but it's basically a dumb leader on an article that's actually about immigration policy...

tezza 10y ago

Check out the ReSpeaker Kickstarter project The project is clearly run by some brilliant ESL techies, who have a truly funky product: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/seeed/respeaker-an-open-modular-voice-interface-to-hack/description https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/seeed/respeaker-an-open... I was well chuffed to see fresh ideas. As you say, why does it matter if it comes from a US company ?

xiaoma 10y ago

Despite being a subsidiary of Naver, LINE is a Japanese company.

mattnewton 10y ago
Thanks, I wanted to say Japanese, but changed it to Korean with after quick googling. Guess it was too quick.

richmarr 10y ago

> ...if the Chinese start making better products... China is ahead in biotech, IoT, AR, and a bunch of other areas, and have grown the only serious IaaS competitor to Amazon. The future is here already, much the rest of the world (particularly in the US) has its head in the sand, wheeling out the tired old trope about China being a nation of copycats. If that were ever true, it isn't true anymore.

mattnewton 10y ago
I believe it. It just doesn't make sense that everyone would move to the US before starting their idea, the sheer volume of people in China means that they will have so much personal capital they should be leading a lot of these fields. Everyone starts as "a copycat". It doesn't matter; consumers benefit from competition.

ArkyBeagle 10y ago

R&D should have a positive multiplier else why do it at all? Much of what's called "R&D" sort of isn't - it's not that easy to disentangle maintenance from development. The H1B visa encourages headcount-think, which is a "policy smell" in tech development. At least some people I've known who've had H1B visas felt it was exploitative.