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If the steady erosion of privacy is combined with a steady loss of government arresting powers (i.e. coercion through violence) and the steady decline of social

by hx87 10y ago

If the steady erosion of privacy is combined with a steady loss of government arresting powers (i.e. coercion through violence) and the steady decline of social conservatism (i.e. coercion through blackmail and hypocrisy), I'm surprisingly okay with that.

mamon 10y ago
Government powers can only go up, never down. One possible exception is when government is in total decay, but that's only temporary state before it gets replaced by other strong government (through revolution or external conquest)
- hx87 10y ago
  Government /reach/ tends to go up, but government /repressiveness/ tends to go down. The trend is towards a state that is everyone but coerces little.
- pmoriarty 10y ago
  "Government powers can only go up, never down." That's not really true. There were significant curtailments of US government power after scandals like Watergate, the Pentagon Papers, the revelations of MK ULTRA, and all the spying that was done on journalists, civil rights leaders, etc. Of course, now there's been a backlash in the other direction, and it will probably get a lot worse before it will get better. But history has shown that it can get better. Also, see the history of the Stasi in East Germany and Stalin in the USSR.
whatshisface 10y ago
Once your brain scan is a torrent, you'd better hope that nobody starts the Fourth Great Revival. You might feel safe now, but can you really know for sure that you will never step out of lockstep with the ruling party? What about all future ruling parties? What happens if an easily-offended future regime finds your archived brainscan and decides that an opinion that is OK today makes you then in their eyes like a former Klansman?
- hx87 10y ago
  If the ruling party has no arresting powers and social morality closely correlates with what people actually do, why should I worry if I disagree with them? Does a former (or hell, even present) Klansman face any penalties other than social ostracism today? As long as government police power over individuals gets slowly eroded, it becomes less and less dangerous to hold an unpopular opinion, even if everyone knows about it. I'm fine with my actions and opinions being public. I'm fine with being unpopular. I'm not fine with being arrested, fined, or sued for amounts that don't scale with wealth and income, and I think that is where civil libertarians should focus their energies.
  - billions 10y ago
    This. Big brother is increasingly being watched by public iPhones.
  - whatshisface 10y ago
    But being unpopular can result in your material harm - people won't want to do business with you.
    - hx87 10y ago
      Then the problem is in the social norms concerning doing business with unpopular people, not with the knowledge that leads to my being unpopular. Personally, I will do business with anyone, no matter how much I dislike them, and I think it would be a good social norm.

by hx87 10y ago

mamon 10y ago

Government powers can only go up, never down. One possible exception is when government is in total decay, but that's only temporary state before it gets replaced by other strong government (through revolution or external conquest)

hx87 10y ago
Government /reach/ tends to go up, but government /repressiveness/ tends to go down. The trend is towards a state that is everyone but coerces little.
pmoriarty 10y ago
"Government powers can only go up, never down." That's not really true. There were significant curtailments of US government power after scandals like Watergate, the Pentagon Papers, the revelations of MK ULTRA, and all the spying that was done on journalists, civil rights leaders, etc. Of course, now there's been a backlash in the other direction, and it will probably get a lot worse before it will get better. But history has shown that it can get better. Also, see the history of the Stasi in East Germany and Stalin in the USSR.

whatshisface 10y ago

Once your brain scan is a torrent, you'd better hope that nobody starts the Fourth Great Revival. You might feel safe now, but can you really know for sure that you will never step out of lockstep with the ruling party? What about all future ruling parties? What happens if an easily-offended future regime finds your archived brainscan and decides that an opinion that is OK today makes you then in their eyes like a former Klansman?

hx87 10y ago
If the ruling party has no arresting powers and social morality closely correlates with what people actually do, why should I worry if I disagree with them? Does a former (or hell, even present) Klansman face any penalties other than social ostracism today? As long as government police power over individuals gets slowly eroded, it becomes less and less dangerous to hold an unpopular opinion, even if everyone knows about it. I'm fine with my actions and opinions being public. I'm fine with being unpopular. I'm not fine with being arrested, fined, or sued for amounts that don't scale with wealth and income, and I think that is where civil libertarians should focus their energies.
- billions 10y ago
  This. Big brother is increasingly being watched by public iPhones.
- whatshisface 10y ago
  But being unpopular can result in your material harm - people won't want to do business with you.
  - hx87 10y ago
    Then the problem is in the social norms concerning doing business with unpopular people, not with the knowledge that leads to my being unpopular. Personally, I will do business with anyone, no matter how much I dislike them, and I think it would be a good social norm.