3 ms·

This is so much letting other people or countries decide what you should do. The Land of the Free should make its own decisions, no matter what China or Russia

This is so much letting other people or countries decide what you should do. The Land of the Free should make its own decisions, no matter what China or Russia finds. In my opinion, Snowden did something really patriotic, but you may have another definition of what patriotic means. Even if Russia forced information out of him, against his will, that should not block a pardon. Then it's even more important that he tells the US what he told them.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
wtbob 10y ago
> In my opinion, Snowden did something really patriotic He ignored the legal process for raising his concerns. He ignored the inspectors general. He stole information he had no legitimate need to access and fled to adversary states. He caused exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the United States.
- ionised 10y ago
  The legal process in this situation is broken to its core.
- Karunamon 10y ago
  You mean the "legal process" that other whistleblowers have come forward and said is useless and more interested in shooting messengers than righting wrongs?[1] You mean the adversary state that is the only thing keeping Snowden from rotting in a military prison to never see the light of day again? How do you think that would have played out had he went somewhere "friendly" to the USA? The "damage" that was done to the "national security" of the united states is more damage to the pride of those caught in illegal behavior than bona fide harm to America. It was a revealing to people that their government has been lying to them, loudly and repeatedly, something which is strictly positive. [1]: https://theintercept.com/2016/05/23/vindication-for-edward-snowden-from-a-new-player-in-nsa-whistleblowing-saga/ https://theintercept.com/2016/05/23/vindication-for-edward-s...
- Fordrus 10y ago
  Okay, I am not an expert, but I have read several UNSYMPATHETIC accounts of Snowdon's actions that specifically and categorically contradict what you say here when you assert that "He ignored the legal process for raising his concerns." Last I checked, the consensus was that he raised concerns repeatedly within his chain of command and then attempted to go over it, so much so that there was a process begun to review his actions for discipline/reduced security clearance. He did not ignore the legal process for raising his concerned- the legal process for raising his concerns FAILED, and, as widely acknowledged by those who should have had oversight (but did not effectively have it until post-Snowden) after his leaks, those concerns should havs been taken seriously by that review process, but were not. Furthermore, you must understand this: the damage that Edward Snowden caused to the United States was no more and no less than desperately necessary chemotherapy, because the NSA had grown CANCEROUS, and I'm absolutely not convinced it has been cured totally, though I'd be happy to see information otherwise.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    > Last I checked, the consensus was that he raised concerns repeatedly within his chain of command Yes, and he ignored that everyone qualified to determine the legality of the programmes he objected to determined that they were, in fact, legal. > He did not ignore the legal process for raising his concerned- the legal process for raising his concerns FAILED No, it succeeded. Nothing he revealed was in fact illegal or unconstitutional. Neither the law nor the Constitution mandates all good things, nor bans all bad things. 'I don't like it' is unsufficient proof of illegality.
    - dTal 10y ago
      >Neither the law nor the Constitution mandates all good things, nor bans all bad things Which is precisely why whether it was "legal", as defined by the NSA themselves, is irrelevant.
    - intherdfield 10y ago
      > No, it succeeded. Nothing he revealed was in fact illegal or unconstitutional. Neither the law nor the Constitution mandates all good things, nor bans all bad things. 'I don't like it' is unsufficient proof of illegality. No, he exposed a federal crime being committed by the Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper. He exposed how the Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper committed perjury (a federal crime in this instance) by lying to Congress and the American people about mass surveillance. Is the counter argument that senior government officials should be allowed to lie to Congress about surveillance of American citizens? And from wikipedia[1]: "Two U.S. representatives accused Clapper of perjury for telling a Congressional committee in March 2013, that the NSA does not collect any type of data at all on millions of Americans. One senator asked for his resignation, and a group of 26 senators complained about Clapper's responses under questioning. Media observers have described Clapper as having lied under oath, having obstructed justice, and having given false testimony." Clapper changed his story a few times but eventually described this as something like "I forgot what we were talking about" but only after the perjury was exposed. Attorney General Eric Holder basically said he just forgot something and no charges necessary. One interpretation of this is as overt government corruption. It's relevant that Holder recently said he believes Snowden performed a public service. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R._Clapper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R._Clapper
- pc86 10y ago
  > He caused exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the United States. Unless you can point to a specific quantifiable thing that happened due to the information he had (because some people getting rightfully upset with their government's mass surveillance of its own people) I'd have trouble saying he caused any damage whatsoever. And to the prior points, that's sort of what he'd need a pardon for, isn't it?
- KingMob 10y ago
  Snowden deliberately looked at the outcomes of several whistleblowers before him, and concluded (rightly) that nothing would change. Bill Binney and Thomas Drake were both NSA whistleblowers who tried to go through proper channels, including superiors and the Congressional intelligence committees. Drake was charged after showing illegal spying documents to a journalist, but they dropped the case, eventually, and he ended up working at an Apple store. Binney never revealed sensitive documents, and as a result, he wasn't able to get anyone to investigate his criticisms. But in retaliation for speaking up to Congress, the NSA revoked his security clearance and railroaded him out of business. Peyton Manning and Assange are also good non-NSA examples of how whistleblowers are actually treated. Finally, Snowden did not flee to Russia. He went to Hong Kong because of its strange quasi-independent status, and was trapped in Russia en route to Central America.
  - knd775 10y ago
    >Peyton Manning
  - dudul 10y ago
    Peyton Manning is a football player.
    - KingMob 10y ago
      Whoops! Meant Chelsea Manning.
- metaphorm 10y ago
  > He caused exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the United States. do you really believe that? prove it. what security incidents have occurred because of Snowden's revelations that would not have occurred otherwise?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

wtbob 10y ago

> In my opinion, Snowden did something really patriotic He ignored the legal process for raising his concerns. He ignored the inspectors general. He stole information he had no legitimate need to access and fled to adversary states. He caused exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the United States.

ionised 10y ago
The legal process in this situation is broken to its core.
Karunamon 10y ago
You mean the "legal process" that other whistleblowers have come forward and said is useless and more interested in shooting messengers than righting wrongs?[1] You mean the adversary state that is the only thing keeping Snowden from rotting in a military prison to never see the light of day again? How do you think that would have played out had he went somewhere "friendly" to the USA? The "damage" that was done to the "national security" of the united states is more damage to the pride of those caught in illegal behavior than bona fide harm to America. It was a revealing to people that their government has been lying to them, loudly and repeatedly, something which is strictly positive. [1]: https://theintercept.com/2016/05/23/vindication-for-edward-snowden-from-a-new-player-in-nsa-whistleblowing-saga/ https://theintercept.com/2016/05/23/vindication-for-edward-s...
Fordrus 10y ago
Okay, I am not an expert, but I have read several UNSYMPATHETIC accounts of Snowdon's actions that specifically and categorically contradict what you say here when you assert that "He ignored the legal process for raising his concerns." Last I checked, the consensus was that he raised concerns repeatedly within his chain of command and then attempted to go over it, so much so that there was a process begun to review his actions for discipline/reduced security clearance. He did not ignore the legal process for raising his concerned- the legal process for raising his concerns FAILED, and, as widely acknowledged by those who should have had oversight (but did not effectively have it until post-Snowden) after his leaks, those concerns should havs been taken seriously by that review process, but were not. Furthermore, you must understand this: the damage that Edward Snowden caused to the United States was no more and no less than desperately necessary chemotherapy, because the NSA had grown CANCEROUS, and I'm absolutely not convinced it has been cured totally, though I'd be happy to see information otherwise.
- zeveb 10y ago
  > Last I checked, the consensus was that he raised concerns repeatedly within his chain of command Yes, and he ignored that everyone qualified to determine the legality of the programmes he objected to determined that they were, in fact, legal. > He did not ignore the legal process for raising his concerned- the legal process for raising his concerns FAILED No, it succeeded. Nothing he revealed was in fact illegal or unconstitutional. Neither the law nor the Constitution mandates all good things, nor bans all bad things. 'I don't like it' is unsufficient proof of illegality.
  - dTal 10y ago
    >Neither the law nor the Constitution mandates all good things, nor bans all bad things Which is precisely why whether it was "legal", as defined by the NSA themselves, is irrelevant.
  - intherdfield 10y ago
    > No, it succeeded. Nothing he revealed was in fact illegal or unconstitutional. Neither the law nor the Constitution mandates all good things, nor bans all bad things. 'I don't like it' is unsufficient proof of illegality. No, he exposed a federal crime being committed by the Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper. He exposed how the Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper committed perjury (a federal crime in this instance) by lying to Congress and the American people about mass surveillance. Is the counter argument that senior government officials should be allowed to lie to Congress about surveillance of American citizens? And from wikipedia[1]: "Two U.S. representatives accused Clapper of perjury for telling a Congressional committee in March 2013, that the NSA does not collect any type of data at all on millions of Americans. One senator asked for his resignation, and a group of 26 senators complained about Clapper's responses under questioning. Media observers have described Clapper as having lied under oath, having obstructed justice, and having given false testimony." Clapper changed his story a few times but eventually described this as something like "I forgot what we were talking about" but only after the perjury was exposed. Attorney General Eric Holder basically said he just forgot something and no charges necessary. One interpretation of this is as overt government corruption. It's relevant that Holder recently said he believes Snowden performed a public service. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R._Clapper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R._Clapper
pc86 10y ago
> He caused exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the United States. Unless you can point to a specific quantifiable thing that happened due to the information he had (because some people getting rightfully upset with their government's mass surveillance of its own people) I'd have trouble saying he caused any damage whatsoever. And to the prior points, that's sort of what he'd need a pardon for, isn't it?
KingMob 10y ago
Snowden deliberately looked at the outcomes of several whistleblowers before him, and concluded (rightly) that nothing would change. Bill Binney and Thomas Drake were both NSA whistleblowers who tried to go through proper channels, including superiors and the Congressional intelligence committees. Drake was charged after showing illegal spying documents to a journalist, but they dropped the case, eventually, and he ended up working at an Apple store. Binney never revealed sensitive documents, and as a result, he wasn't able to get anyone to investigate his criticisms. But in retaliation for speaking up to Congress, the NSA revoked his security clearance and railroaded him out of business. Peyton Manning and Assange are also good non-NSA examples of how whistleblowers are actually treated. Finally, Snowden did not flee to Russia. He went to Hong Kong because of its strange quasi-independent status, and was trapped in Russia en route to Central America.
- knd775 10y ago
  >Peyton Manning
- dudul 10y ago
  Peyton Manning is a football player.
  - KingMob 10y ago
    Whoops! Meant Chelsea Manning.
metaphorm 10y ago
> He caused exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the United States. do you really believe that? prove it. what security incidents have occurred because of Snowden's revelations that would not have occurred otherwise?