5 ms·

Out of curiosity - how powerful is a presidential pardon? Can a US president basically compose an edict saying 'This man is a bleeding hero and no branch of th

by lb1lf 10y ago

Out of curiosity - how powerful is a presidential pardon? Can a US president basically compose an edict saying 'This man is a bleeding hero and no branch of the US government will ever hold any of his actions related to incident X against him, now or in the future or else they shall snuff it!' and have this respected by his successors? Or may a presidential pardon be reversed by any successor? Is it narrowly defined, eg. the pardonee (is that even a word) may not be prosecuted for his violation of US code such-and-such, section so-so committed on or before date DDMMYY? (Leaving any successor free to throw the book at him for anything not explicitly covered by the issued pardon?) Hm. Off to Google I go; I find the concept somewhat intriguing.

tptacek 10y ago
Yes, Snowden could be pardoned preemptively and expansively. That's how Ford pardoned Nixon. No, a pardon could not be reversed by a future president (else: Ford could not truly have pardoned Nixon). There's SCOTUS precedent on both of these.
- dllthomas 10y ago
  For clarity: When you say "preemptively", you mean in advance of trial or even indictment. So far as I'm aware, the President cannot issue a pardon in advance of the crime.
s_q_b 10y ago
The President of the United States has the almost unqualified power to grant pardons for crimes against the United States, whether current or past, whether unindicted or convicted.
- lostboys67 10y ago
  Which is a hangover from the more corrupt days if Obama wants to go down in history again he ought to forgo any pardons except for those of miscarriage of justice agreed by the supreme court.
  - pc86 10y ago
    A hangover from the more corrupt days of the 1770s? Not sure what in the world you're trying to say here, honestly.
    - lostboys67 10y ago
      No offense intended America politicians get away with naughty shit that would get you 5 years in jail in the UK. political. Let alone the whole machine system which is well with living memory and handing out ambassadorships to mates instead of professional diplomats doesn't look good.
- eastbayjake 10y ago
  I came to comment that Snowden's request for pardon would presumably require a conviction, but on further research you're right that the president's pardon powers are "unlimited" -- even before legal proceedings have begun: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/05/opinion/l-constitution-allows-pardons-before-conviction-590688.html http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/05/opinion/l-constitution-all...
chiph 10y ago
President Obama could certainly pardon him without any qualifications. Which is not to say that some people in government wouldn't use their bureaucratic powers to harass him once he returns because they dislike what he did. For example, he might get the run-around when renewing his driver's license: "Oh, we need to see your prescription from your optician before we can put your eyeglass restriction on your license" (obviously not true but he won't get his license until he complies)
- 91bananas 10y ago
  Which assumes someone at the DMV would be cooperative with another human. Slim chance of this
cloudjacker 10y ago
Clintons pardon of Marc Rich happened on his last day in office. I seem to recall the Wikipedia article speculating on the checks and balances available if Marc Rich actually did return to the US You should check that out
- yes_or_gnome 10y ago
  Most pardons happen on the last day of office. Also, there are 'pocket vetos' where the acting president either doesn't want to outright veto to alienate his party or wants to see the election results before making a final decision. Either way, the President ends up vetoing or signing controversial bills in their last few months in office. I seem to recall there was a president that forgot to veto some bills and the next president signed them. I think there was even a Supreme Court case that held the laws as constitutional.
  - mcherm 10y ago
    Correction: a few controversial pardons happen on the last day of office. The majority of presidential pardons flow through the normal process where a person applies for the pardon, has their case reviewed by a team formed for this purpose. Obama stands out as one of the presidents who has issued the FEWEST pardons, although he says he may change that. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-08-04/obama-says-he-will-catch-up-on-pardons-but-hes-far-behind http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-08-04/obama-says-he...
giardini 10y ago
lb1lf: "how powerful is a presidential pardon?" The president can pardon offenses of federal law. A state's governor can pardon offenses of that particular state's laws.
wmil 10y ago
It's incredibly powerful. The President can actually pardon entire classes of people. Carter issued a pardon to all draft dodgers. Ford had previously issued a limited pardon to some. Obama could actually commute the sentences of everyone serving a sentence strictly for marijuana possession to time served.
- rhino369 10y ago
  The only limit is that it doesn't apply to state crimes.
ceejayoz 10y ago
There's a Clancy novel built around the concept of a private spy agency with blank-check pardons for future actions from a President.
- Kadin 10y ago
  That idea also figured heavily in one of the Jack Bauer TV shows. I had an interesting discussion with a couple of lawyers over beers about it once. As far as anyone could tell, there's no precedent to suggest that that it would work, but none to say that it wouldn't work, either. If the President was still in office and didn't object when you tried to invoke the advance-written pardon, it wouldn't seem as though anyone else would really have a place to interfere. The sticky situation would be if you got an advance pardon and then did something really heinous, such that the President who gave the original blank-check pardon objected on the basis that the conduct wasn't meant to be covered. You'd be on thin ice then.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > If the President was still in office and didn't object when you tried to invoke the advance-written pardon, it wouldn't seem as though anyone else would really have a place to interfere. If the President is still in office, as head of the executive branch he can prevent prosecution even if there is no pardon, and, anyway, he could just issue a new and properly retrospective pardon. A pardon that's only good if the President that issued it is still in office and still agrees with it is exactly the same as no pardon at all. The pardon power is only meaningful because it is binding on the federal government, and not just as long as the current President is in power, but forever (or, at least, until the Constitution is amended to change its status.) AFAICT, the general consensus among those who study Constitutional law is that prospective pardons (those for crimes not yet committed when the pardon is issued) are nullities; for there to be a crime for a pardon or reprieve to apply to, it must have been committed (even if it has not been discovered) when the pardon is issued. But because no prospective pardons have been issued and then their effect challenged in court, this has never been litigated, and there is no case law on the subject. (But if prospective pardons were possible, given the established breadth of the pardon power in other aspects, it would mean that the President could essentially prevent the US government from ever adopting -- or, rather, ever enforcing -- certain criminal laws that do not yet exist, simply by issuing prospective pardons for any offenses resulting from particular classes of conduct that he doesn't want to ever be criminalized.)
dragonwriter 10y ago
> Out of curiosity - how powerful is a presidential pardon? It is absolute. > Can a US president basically compose an edict saying 'This man is a bleeding hero and no branch of the US government will ever hold any of his actions related to incident X against him, now or in the future or else they shall snuff it!' and have this respected by his successors? No, a pardon only affects criminal prosecutions and punishments -- to the extent covered by the text of the pardon, any future prosecution (or continuation of existing prosecution) is barred, and any criminal punishment (including and disabilities imposed by past conviction) is terminated. It doesn't affect any other action by the government, including any civil action that might be available in law. > Is it narrowly defined, eg. the pardonee (is that even a word) may not be prosecuted for his violation of US code such-and-such, section so-so committed on or before date DDMMYY? (Leaving any successor free to throw the book at him for anything not explicitly covered by the issued pardon?) It can be as narrow or broad as the President chooses. About the only limit is that it is generally held (though this has never had occasion to be tested) that the Constitutional power of the pardon does not extend to prospective pardons (that is, a pardon cannot apply to offenses that occur after the pardon is issued.)
- okwhatthe2 10y ago
  If I am elected president, I will pardon every criminal on the planet, on the condition they seek rehabilitation in community centers. I will also unconstitutionally use my executive powers to close all prisons, dictate human rights-based technology to be made, and end executive power for all time.
- okwhatthe2 10y ago
  If I am elected president, I will pardon every criminal on the planet, on the condition they seek rehabilitation in community centers. I will also unconstitutionally use my executive powers to close all prisons, dictate human rights-based technology to be made, and end executive power for all time.
- BrandonY 10y ago
  One more limitation: a Presidential pardon doesn't affect state laws. If, for instance, Snowden had committed some crime against the state that he was residing in, the President would not forgive it.

by lb1lf 10y ago

tptacek 10y ago

Yes, Snowden could be pardoned preemptively and expansively. That's how Ford pardoned Nixon. No, a pardon could not be reversed by a future president (else: Ford could not truly have pardoned Nixon). There's SCOTUS precedent on both of these.

dllthomas 10y ago
For clarity: When you say "preemptively", you mean in advance of trial or even indictment. So far as I'm aware, the President cannot issue a pardon in advance of the crime.

s_q_b 10y ago

The President of the United States has the almost unqualified power to grant pardons for crimes against the United States, whether current or past, whether unindicted or convicted.

lostboys67 10y ago
Which is a hangover from the more corrupt days if Obama wants to go down in history again he ought to forgo any pardons except for those of miscarriage of justice agreed by the supreme court.
- pc86 10y ago
  A hangover from the more corrupt days of the 1770s? Not sure what in the world you're trying to say here, honestly.
  - lostboys67 10y ago
    No offense intended America politicians get away with naughty shit that would get you 5 years in jail in the UK. political. Let alone the whole machine system which is well with living memory and handing out ambassadorships to mates instead of professional diplomats doesn't look good.
eastbayjake 10y ago
I came to comment that Snowden's request for pardon would presumably require a conviction, but on further research you're right that the president's pardon powers are "unlimited" -- even before legal proceedings have begun: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/05/opinion/l-constitution-allows-pardons-before-conviction-590688.html http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/05/opinion/l-constitution-all...

chiph 10y ago

President Obama could certainly pardon him without any qualifications. Which is not to say that some people in government wouldn't use their bureaucratic powers to harass him once he returns because they dislike what he did. For example, he might get the run-around when renewing his driver's license: "Oh, we need to see your prescription from your optician before we can put your eyeglass restriction on your license" (obviously not true but he won't get his license until he complies)

91bananas 10y ago
Which assumes someone at the DMV would be cooperative with another human. Slim chance of this

cloudjacker 10y ago

Clintons pardon of Marc Rich happened on his last day in office. I seem to recall the Wikipedia article speculating on the checks and balances available if Marc Rich actually did return to the US You should check that out

yes_or_gnome 10y ago
Most pardons happen on the last day of office. Also, there are 'pocket vetos' where the acting president either doesn't want to outright veto to alienate his party or wants to see the election results before making a final decision. Either way, the President ends up vetoing or signing controversial bills in their last few months in office. I seem to recall there was a president that forgot to veto some bills and the next president signed them. I think there was even a Supreme Court case that held the laws as constitutional.
- mcherm 10y ago
  Correction: a few controversial pardons happen on the last day of office. The majority of presidential pardons flow through the normal process where a person applies for the pardon, has their case reviewed by a team formed for this purpose. Obama stands out as one of the presidents who has issued the FEWEST pardons, although he says he may change that. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-08-04/obama-says-he-will-catch-up-on-pardons-but-hes-far-behind http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-08-04/obama-says-he...

giardini 10y ago

lb1lf: "how powerful is a presidential pardon?" The president can pardon offenses of federal law. A state's governor can pardon offenses of that particular state's laws.

wmil 10y ago

It's incredibly powerful. The President can actually pardon entire classes of people. Carter issued a pardon to all draft dodgers. Ford had previously issued a limited pardon to some. Obama could actually commute the sentences of everyone serving a sentence strictly for marijuana possession to time served.

rhino369 10y ago
The only limit is that it doesn't apply to state crimes.

ceejayoz 10y ago

There's a Clancy novel built around the concept of a private spy agency with blank-check pardons for future actions from a President.

Kadin 10y ago
That idea also figured heavily in one of the Jack Bauer TV shows. I had an interesting discussion with a couple of lawyers over beers about it once. As far as anyone could tell, there's no precedent to suggest that that it would work, but none to say that it wouldn't work, either. If the President was still in office and didn't object when you tried to invoke the advance-written pardon, it wouldn't seem as though anyone else would really have a place to interfere. The sticky situation would be if you got an advance pardon and then did something really heinous, such that the President who gave the original blank-check pardon objected on the basis that the conduct wasn't meant to be covered. You'd be on thin ice then.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > If the President was still in office and didn't object when you tried to invoke the advance-written pardon, it wouldn't seem as though anyone else would really have a place to interfere. If the President is still in office, as head of the executive branch he can prevent prosecution even if there is no pardon, and, anyway, he could just issue a new and properly retrospective pardon. A pardon that's only good if the President that issued it is still in office and still agrees with it is exactly the same as no pardon at all. The pardon power is only meaningful because it is binding on the federal government, and not just as long as the current President is in power, but forever (or, at least, until the Constitution is amended to change its status.) AFAICT, the general consensus among those who study Constitutional law is that prospective pardons (those for crimes not yet committed when the pardon is issued) are nullities; for there to be a crime for a pardon or reprieve to apply to, it must have been committed (even if it has not been discovered) when the pardon is issued. But because no prospective pardons have been issued and then their effect challenged in court, this has never been litigated, and there is no case law on the subject. (But if prospective pardons were possible, given the established breadth of the pardon power in other aspects, it would mean that the President could essentially prevent the US government from ever adopting -- or, rather, ever enforcing -- certain criminal laws that do not yet exist, simply by issuing prospective pardons for any offenses resulting from particular classes of conduct that he doesn't want to ever be criminalized.)

dragonwriter 10y ago

> Out of curiosity - how powerful is a presidential pardon? It is absolute. > Can a US president basically compose an edict saying 'This man is a bleeding hero and no branch of the US government will ever hold any of his actions related to incident X against him, now or in the future or else they shall snuff it!' and have this respected by his successors? No, a pardon only affects criminal prosecutions and punishments -- to the extent covered by the text of the pardon, any future prosecution (or continuation of existing prosecution) is barred, and any criminal punishment (including and disabilities imposed by past conviction) is terminated. It doesn't affect any other action by the government, including any civil action that might be available in law. > Is it narrowly defined, eg. the pardonee (is that even a word) may not be prosecuted for his violation of US code such-and-such, section so-so committed on or before date DDMMYY? (Leaving any successor free to throw the book at him for anything not explicitly covered by the issued pardon?) It can be as narrow or broad as the President chooses. About the only limit is that it is generally held (though this has never had occasion to be tested) that the Constitutional power of the pardon does not extend to prospective pardons (that is, a pardon cannot apply to offenses that occur after the pardon is issued.)

okwhatthe2 10y ago
If I am elected president, I will pardon every criminal on the planet, on the condition they seek rehabilitation in community centers. I will also unconstitutionally use my executive powers to close all prisons, dictate human rights-based technology to be made, and end executive power for all time.
okwhatthe2 10y ago
If I am elected president, I will pardon every criminal on the planet, on the condition they seek rehabilitation in community centers. I will also unconstitutionally use my executive powers to close all prisons, dictate human rights-based technology to be made, and end executive power for all time.
BrandonY 10y ago
One more limitation: a Presidential pardon doesn't affect state laws. If, for instance, Snowden had committed some crime against the state that he was residing in, the President would not forgive it.