4 ms·

This is also known as the "shit sandwich" (when leavened with another helping of praise on the other end), and is instantly recognizable once you see the patter

This is also known as the "shit sandwich" (when leavened with another helping of praise on the other end), and is instantly recognizable once you see the pattern. The risk is that your initial praise is seen as disingenuous by its recipients, or that it goes too far and reifies their underlying value system when it actually is contradictory to yours. Incidentally, Barack Obama was particularly good at this construction in his first term, but fell victim to the first trap. Pre-Trump Republicans in general fall victim to the second, when they have any effective rhetoric at all. Like most rhetorical devices, it works better in person than in print.

douche 10y ago
I hate this pattern. If something is fucked up, tell me, so I can fix it. Don't waste my time buttering me up first and patting me on the back afterwards, just get to the point. It's one thing I do kind of miss about working shitty, dangerous construction and logging jobs summers in college. There's no time for pussyfooting around when a miscommunication means somebody gets crushed or mangled by heavy equipment. Brusque, unambiguous, often profanity-laced communication is more effective getting the point across rapidly...
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  I'm with you on most of that (the sandwich), but (the shit) it requires a community of trust, and some healthy functioning people, at least within that specific context. I've had a recent online experience in a community in which all interaction is anonymous -- but the anonymity isn't persistent, rather, identities are created and assigned for each discussion. This almost perfectly destroys any and all sense of community. It also interacts poorly with several other site dynamics, but the result is phenomenally toxic. I do know online communities, usually smallish (5-50 people, occasionally more, but rarely >150) where that kind of banter can develop. I've seen it in workplaces, but rarely, and even then often only between a few people. Like you I've seen it in jobs involving physical work, close quarters, and danger, and those were some of the most awesome times of my life. There's a strong sense of missing that in much technology and online interaction. I've also seen places which are almost the antithesis of this. Where there's no trust, or camarderie, or sense of shared purpose. Financial industry and political environments seem to be the epitome of this. In banking, the culture permeates inside organisations, in politics, it's usually confined to rivalries across party lines, though not always. In either case, though, you find that there's an excessive need for formality, protocol, and ego-buttering which isn't so necessary elsewhere. And which apparently you and I both find tedious.
  - flukus 10y ago
    > I've had a recent online experience in a community in which all interaction is anonymous -- but the anonymity isn't persistent, rather, identities are created and assigned for each discussion. I'd like to experience that, it's pretty much how I read reddit/hn anyway. I would be a good way to eliminate group think.
    - LoSboccacc 10y ago
      eh doesn't 4chan work that way?
      - flukus 10y ago
        I was thinking something more like Reddit with the curation voting provides, threaded comments, etc.
        Natanael_L 10y ago
        So, reddit with more throwaway accounts Using automoderator and/or other moderation bots in your own sub, you could automatically only accept contributions from young accounts that haven't posted in other subreddits
- tedmiston 10y ago
  Re: logging I had similar experiences communicating with the guide in whitewater rafting.
- LoSboccacc 10y ago
  Welcome to the pussy generation, which can't take criticism unless they also get their medal and can't learn anything from references until a video explains them in caring words what's best and worst for them.
  - sctb 10y ago
    Please don't comment like this here. Hacker News is for intellectually interesting discussion, and uninformative lamentations don't meet that bar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - LoSboccacc 10y ago
      > Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site If you think a comment is egregious, click on its timestamp to go to its page, then click 'flag' at the top. 1 - 1 tie, I guess?
zuminator 10y ago
Although I agree it can be <i>perceived</i> as disingenuous, I think it's perfectly valid to clarify areas of common thought before trying to adjust someone else's way of thinking. Furthermore it doesn't just make them feel better, but in my experience it makes me as the speaker feel good to openly acknowledge the respect I have for the person I'm dialoguing with, instead of just thinking of them as pure adversary.
- Cogito 10y ago
  Offtopic: not sure if you're aware, but wrapping text in * will make it italicised on HN. For example, this text is wrapped.
aninhumer 10y ago
>The risk is that your initial praise is seen as disingenuous by its recipients Because if you're concocting praise to implement something you call a "shit sandwich", it probably is disingenuous.
solatic 10y ago
I can't believe I had to scroll this far down to find someone bringing this up. I work for a boss that went to a management school where they taught him a "retain/improve" method: first tell people which behavior they should retain, to stroke their egos, then tell people how they can improve, which is what you actually want them to do. So every time I hear praise come out of his mouth, I immediately get cynical and think "that's not what he really thinks, he's just saying that because he's been trained to say things like that first." TL:DR of the original article is "show empathy to people." Empathy is not the same thing as flattery, and poor management doesn't know the difference.

douche 10y ago

I hate this pattern. If something is fucked up, tell me, so I can fix it. Don't waste my time buttering me up first and patting me on the back afterwards, just get to the point. It's one thing I do kind of miss about working shitty, dangerous construction and logging jobs summers in college. There's no time for pussyfooting around when a miscommunication means somebody gets crushed or mangled by heavy equipment. Brusque, unambiguous, often profanity-laced communication is more effective getting the point across rapidly...

dredmorbius 10y ago
I'm with you on most of that (the sandwich), but (the shit) it requires a community of trust, and some healthy functioning people, at least within that specific context. I've had a recent online experience in a community in which all interaction is anonymous -- but the anonymity isn't persistent, rather, identities are created and assigned for each discussion. This almost perfectly destroys any and all sense of community. It also interacts poorly with several other site dynamics, but the result is phenomenally toxic. I do know online communities, usually smallish (5-50 people, occasionally more, but rarely >150) where that kind of banter can develop. I've seen it in workplaces, but rarely, and even then often only between a few people. Like you I've seen it in jobs involving physical work, close quarters, and danger, and those were some of the most awesome times of my life. There's a strong sense of missing that in much technology and online interaction. I've also seen places which are almost the antithesis of this. Where there's no trust, or camarderie, or sense of shared purpose. Financial industry and political environments seem to be the epitome of this. In banking, the culture permeates inside organisations, in politics, it's usually confined to rivalries across party lines, though not always. In either case, though, you find that there's an excessive need for formality, protocol, and ego-buttering which isn't so necessary elsewhere. And which apparently you and I both find tedious.
- flukus 10y ago
  > I've had a recent online experience in a community in which all interaction is anonymous -- but the anonymity isn't persistent, rather, identities are created and assigned for each discussion. I'd like to experience that, it's pretty much how I read reddit/hn anyway. I would be a good way to eliminate group think.
  - LoSboccacc 10y ago
    eh doesn't 4chan work that way?
    - flukus 10y ago
      I was thinking something more like Reddit with the curation voting provides, threaded comments, etc.
      - Natanael_L 10y ago
        So, reddit with more throwaway accounts Using automoderator and/or other moderation bots in your own sub, you could automatically only accept contributions from young accounts that haven't posted in other subreddits
tedmiston 10y ago
Re: logging I had similar experiences communicating with the guide in whitewater rafting.
LoSboccacc 10y ago
Welcome to the pussy generation, which can't take criticism unless they also get their medal and can't learn anything from references until a video explains them in caring words what's best and worst for them.
- sctb 10y ago
  Please don't comment like this here. Hacker News is for intellectually interesting discussion, and uninformative lamentations don't meet that bar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - LoSboccacc 10y ago
    > Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site If you think a comment is egregious, click on its timestamp to go to its page, then click 'flag' at the top. 1 - 1 tie, I guess?

zuminator 10y ago

Although I agree it can be <i>perceived</i> as disingenuous, I think it's perfectly valid to clarify areas of common thought before trying to adjust someone else's way of thinking. Furthermore it doesn't just make them feel better, but in my experience it makes me as the speaker feel good to openly acknowledge the respect I have for the person I'm dialoguing with, instead of just thinking of them as pure adversary.

Cogito 10y ago
Offtopic: not sure if you're aware, but wrapping text in * will make it italicised on HN. For example, this text is wrapped.

aninhumer 10y ago

>The risk is that your initial praise is seen as disingenuous by its recipients Because if you're concocting praise to implement something you call a "shit sandwich", it probably is disingenuous.

solatic 10y ago

I can't believe I had to scroll this far down to find someone bringing this up. I work for a boss that went to a management school where they taught him a "retain/improve" method: first tell people which behavior they should retain, to stroke their egos, then tell people how they can improve, which is what you actually want them to do. So every time I hear praise come out of his mouth, I immediately get cynical and think "that's not what he really thinks, he's just saying that because he's been trained to say things like that first." TL:DR of the original article is "show empathy to people." Empathy is not the same thing as flattery, and poor management doesn't know the difference.