43 ms·

How the New York Times critic writes the reviews that make and break restaurants

117 points by taylorbuley 10y ago

skilled 10y ago
Does this guy ever review a place that would be affordable for the average -- middle class -- human being, because it is hard to see how the middle class people would care about restaurant reviews on such a vast scale when everyone's struggling to make the ends meet in the first place.
- sbuccini 10y ago
  The article mentions that there are two different columns in the Times. Pete Wells only reviews the fancier restaurants, and it's one of the reasons that a "Fair" review won't even get you one star in his column. Another columnist is responsible for establishments targeted more at "everyday" Americans. The article further states that Wells is actually uncomfortable with this dichotomy and has been throughout his duration at the Times.
  - neilc 10y ago
    > Pete Wells only reviews the fancier restaurants This is not true; in fact, Wells is somewhat famous for reviewing more blue-collar restaurants, in contrast with previous Times critics. For example, here is his review of Guy Fieri's restaurant in Times Square: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/dining/reviews/restaurant-review-guys-american-kitchen-bar-in-times-square.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/dining/reviews/restaurant-...
    - casion 10y ago
      $11 for french fries, $19 hamburger is considered blue-collar? I assume this is a new york thing?
      - neilc 10y ago
        Sure: something can be both overpriced and blue-collar. Think of the food you get at a typical football stadium, for example.
- bsder 10y ago
  Did you read the article? Yes, he does review cheaper places occasionally (the comment about Senor Frogs being one). However, the article does point out that there is a different NYT critic who mostly does the cheaper restaurants.
- idlewords 10y ago
  All kinds of people go to restaurants once in a while to celebrate a special occasion or anniversary. That makes the job of the restaurant critic particularly important. If you are going to splurge once a year on a fancy meal, you really don't want to choose badly.
- pc86 10y ago
  > everyone's struggling to make the ends meet No, I don't think everyone is. A lot of people, maybe. Certainly not most. Definitely not everyone. And this is HN where I would be pretty confident that most who aren't students make 2x the median household income themselves, and the vast majority make 2x the median individual income. And even my parents who are objectively working class people will still splurge for special anniversaries and go to a very, very nice restaurant for dinner. And if you're going somewhere that you can only afford once every 5-10 years, you are probably going to read every review you can get your hands on. They become extraordinarily important.
tastyfishy 10y ago
It's interesting that the NY times critics wield so much power with the chefs and NY public (and maybe even american public), when there are plenty of review systems (michelin, pellegrino) that are more worldly and forward looking. IMO, New York high end cuisine has always been more about hedge fund people and old money impressing each other with higher spend, rather than better food. Maybe that's why there's an aggressive restaurant review culture that serves well to these aggressive customers (born out of finance). IMO bay area fine dining cuisine is #1 in the nation right now (NY might have even be #3, had Chicago not have some unfortunate chef deaths in the last few years) If you look at new york times's 4 star restaurants list: Le Bernardin/Jean Georges (old french cuisine, tons of sauces, boring) Per Se << French Laundry Del Posto (mario battali's strong/strange flavors are either love/hate) Quince (sf) is much more consistent and tasty. Sushi nakazawa - very good nigiri, but lacks decent cooked seafood. Yoshizumi (sf) is much better in both nigiri/cooked food, taste great, is cheaper, and the place has a great minimalistic japanese feel. And there's no direct answer from NY to Benu (out of this world Chinese), atellier crenn (if she only did desserts for all courses), saison (highly innovative), californios, mourad SF might be in top five cities in the world right now for great food (low end and high end)
- hkmurakami 10y ago
  Frankly cooked fish is less than irrelevant in judging a sushi joint.
- dmode 10y ago
  Loved your list. Though, I thought Benu was more Asian fusion rather than Chinese.
  - tastyfishy 10y ago
    Thank you :) love to hear yours.
  - weeks 10y ago
    Benu considers themselves to be New/Contemporary American and I have it on good authority would be highly amused by the accusation of being "out of this world Chinese" or even Asian Fusion. :)
wallace_f 10y ago
It is amazing to me that people care so much about what other people think; they want to be told what they should and should not like. There is some truth that having more practice with fine dining aids in better distinguishing flavours and textures, but most of it has to do with practice in identifying what Other Important People Tell You are desirable qualities. For example, in identifying fine wine, the average, untrained population cannot, study after study has shown, discriminate. One study(1) even showed that perceived quality and neurological response could be manipulated by simply mislabelling bottle price, regardless of actual price. Should you like or dislike food because of what someone else told you to think? Maybe being told what to think is a sign of inept judgement and a lack of resolve--a different interpretation of having a "sophisticated palate." Besides, different qualities--textures being particularly notable--can be desirable in one culture and entirely undesirable in another. My advice: Just enjoy what you like and explore whichever foods you so desire. Take time to really absorb the quality of the food, and try out reasonably priced family owned restaurants. Stop reading the NYT to tell you what to think. Particularly ridiculous addendum: This critic ordered, in the review in question, gluten free noodles even though less than 1% of the world's population has Celiac disease. If I went to work and addressed the problem I was given by tailoring it to 1% of my clients, I would be fired for being an idiot. Probably you would, too. 1) https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/baba-shiv-how-wines-price-tag-affect-its-taste https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/baba-shiv-how-wines-pr...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- zippergz 10y ago
  > It is amazing to me that people care so much about what other people think; they want to be told what they should and should not like. This is an amazingly uncharitable read on the reason that food critics exist. How about this version? There are thousands upon thousands of restaurants in NYC. Constantly opening and closing. No human in the world has time to try them all, and going to one that sucks is a wasted opportunity. So having outside sources to turn you on to good places is really valuable. If you find a restaurant critic whose taste you agree with, taking his or her recommendations can drastically improve your ratio of good to bad meals. It's no different than looking at reviews when going to a movie. If there are 15 movies playing, I'm a fool for reading reviews to help me decide what to watch? I suppose I should just try them all and then decide for myself what I like, rather than "being told what I should and should not like"?
danso 10y ago
My journalism law teacher worked at a regional paper and being the food critic was the job where she had the most direct influence on people's lives. If she wrote a positive review, she'd call the restaurant before the paper went to print to advise them to stock up. Negative reviews frequently meant that a place would shut down in the next few months. After one particular negative review, someone shot out her living room window with a shotgun. I imagine most regional papers today, if they even have a food critic, probably don't wield that much influence what with Yelp. I figure a good review by the NYT will cause a restaurant to skyrocket in popularity. I don't know how busy Dirt Candy was before its 2-star review (it's mentioned in the OP and was the first vegetarian restaurant to get 2-stars in some 10+ years), but I remember it being booked for months. I had to walk by it every night just to check if they had a cancellation to get in before I moved out of New York. But even if the NYT doesn't weigh in, there are so many blogs that cover the food scene in New York that there are plenty of ways to build buzz. (I still used Yelp to find most gems when I lived in New York though)
- flashman 10y ago
  A service with check-in data could probably quantify the uplift of a favourable review, by looking at the number of patrons before and after publication.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
Vera527 10y ago
This is a freaking book, not an article. Who has time to read all of this?
rdslw 10y ago
This is about people who think everybody thinks about them and cares. Nope. And wrong. Explained here why: http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html And the ones who do, do because of prestige, biases, and inability to understand they were being manipulated (into liking/not liking sth). Not to mention, that statistical difference between all this life important eating out, is not worth your attention.
london888 10y ago
I forget how important eating out can be, especially in the US.
syllogism 10y ago
The NY Times probably would be uniquely influential for fine-dining because it's likely one of the few sources of shared information. If you invite someone to an expensive restaurant that's just had a bad review, your invitation must mean either cluelessness or defiance. If you don't mean either of those two things, you should not choose that restaurant. You can't "opt out" of this system. It doesn't matter whether you believe the reviews are accurate. It doesn't matter whether you believe the other party believes the reviews are accurate. Because the review constitutes shared information, the logic of pluralistic ignorance applies. It's not clever to ignore shared information. It just leads you to communicate badly.
- ghaff 10y ago
  >If you invite someone to an expensive restaurant that's just had a bad review, your invitation must mean either cluelessness or defiance. How about you like the restaurant or you have recommendations from people whose tastes you share that like it? If I like a restaurant I really don't care what the newspaper or Yelp says. It's not so much defiance as disagreement. (Sure, if "the reviews" are bad for a restaurant, a movie, etc. the betting money is that it is, in fact, not that great barring other data to the contrary.)
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  business meetings? absolutely. anything else? meh, never enjoyed crowd sheepish mentality, no reasons to start with this. especially when things work like they do
- Retric 10y ago
  A huge swath of people ignore reviews by never reading them. They are only important because of how tight restaurants margins are so even a 5% dip is important.
  - rasz_pl 10y ago
    > tight restaurants margins WAT????
Steko 10y ago
The HN retitling of articles is really starting to jump the shark.
tmaly 10y ago
This is one of the reasons I started my food side project https://bestfoodnearme.com https://bestfoodnearme.com the idea is to give you a list of amazing food dishes close by, so you can quickly figure out what to eat without reading reviews. I personally find it difficult to find new places to try especially when traveling. Reviews can be biased in many ways especially from competitors or dishonest restaurants. Some sites give you the feeling that the reviews are a payola type situation. I hate spending any time reading them. I just want a list of great dishes.
zappo2938 10y ago
I worked as a cook in fine dining, the two and three Michelin star level, for eleven years. Outside of being awarded Michelin stars, it's a myth that reviews have any noticeable influence on a restaurant. Never once have I ever experienced a rush of new customers after a review in the SF Weekly or the LA Times.
treehau5 10y ago
The whole first 3 paragraphs almost describes an intricate dance of restaurants having to keep up with the Times to recognize these reviewers, and the reviewers disguising themselves to get a more authentic experience. It is sort of like driving -- the best way to avoid a speeding ticket is not by having a keen eye, understanding the cop shifts and hiding spots, and when its "quota" time, the best way to avoid a ticket is to just always drive safely. Then you don't even have to worry about being pulled over. Similarly, the best way to avoid having a bad review from a fancy columnist, is to just always treat every customer as if they are special, and not have to catch yourself up in the worry of always looking out for the right people. My father was a restauranteur for 35 years, and myself for 8, I found that even if you don't get it right the first time, if the service is exceptional and you build a rapport with your clientele, you will be given a chance to make it right. Focus your efforts on the important things.
TheLarch 10y ago
To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, fashion is so ugly it has to be replaced every six months. Though the Metropolitan Museum may be my favorite place on earth, I find a good portion of NYC to be repugnant. Nowhere have I seen such spineless obedience to trends and fashions. Many residents seemingly can't put on a tee shirt without worrying over it endlessly, and express a self-congratulatory air when they've gotten that tee shirt just right. They are delighted to wait for 1.5 hours to get a burrito because it's the right burrito, and the right line to be in to buy one. Hearing this guy say "my body is not my own" made me twitch and I had to stop. The difference between them and rabid football fans is a matter of degree, not quality.
- daughart 10y ago
  Is your position that "food critic" is not a legitimate job, or that there is no value in NYT restaurant reviews? Once you admit there is, then by definition someone's job involves a lot of eating. I think that's pretty much all he meant by saying that his body is not his own. If anything, the better comparison is with football PLAYERS, who also make bodily sacrifices in the practice of their chosen profession.
  - TheLarch 10y ago
    Experience proves that food critic is a legitimate job, and sure there's economic value in restaurant review. However in my utopia it would be a low-key affair. Zeal for watching men play a game or eating seems debased to me. The remark about "my body is not my own" seemed unduly melodramatic. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d053pPV_AA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d053pPV_AA)

117 points by taylorbuley 10y ago

Does this guy ever review a place that would be affordable for the average -- middle class -- human being, because it is hard to see how the middle class people would care about restaurant reviews on such a vast scale when everyone's struggling to make the ends meet in the first place.

sbuccini 10y ago
The article mentions that there are two different columns in the Times. Pete Wells only reviews the fancier restaurants, and it's one of the reasons that a "Fair" review won't even get you one star in his column. Another columnist is responsible for establishments targeted more at "everyday" Americans. The article further states that Wells is actually uncomfortable with this dichotomy and has been throughout his duration at the Times.
- neilc 10y ago
  > Pete Wells only reviews the fancier restaurants This is not true; in fact, Wells is somewhat famous for reviewing more blue-collar restaurants, in contrast with previous Times critics. For example, here is his review of Guy Fieri's restaurant in Times Square: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/dining/reviews/restaurant-review-guys-american-kitchen-bar-in-times-square.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/dining/reviews/restaurant-...
  - casion 10y ago
    $11 for french fries, $19 hamburger is considered blue-collar? I assume this is a new york thing?
    - neilc 10y ago
      Sure: something can be both overpriced and blue-collar. Think of the food you get at a typical football stadium, for example.
bsder 10y ago
Did you read the article? Yes, he does review cheaper places occasionally (the comment about Senor Frogs being one). However, the article does point out that there is a different NYT critic who mostly does the cheaper restaurants.
idlewords 10y ago
All kinds of people go to restaurants once in a while to celebrate a special occasion or anniversary. That makes the job of the restaurant critic particularly important. If you are going to splurge once a year on a fancy meal, you really don't want to choose badly.
pc86 10y ago
> everyone's struggling to make the ends meet No, I don't think everyone is. A lot of people, maybe. Certainly not most. Definitely not everyone. And this is HN where I would be pretty confident that most who aren't students make 2x the median household income themselves, and the vast majority make 2x the median individual income. And even my parents who are objectively working class people will still splurge for special anniversaries and go to a very, very nice restaurant for dinner. And if you're going somewhere that you can only afford once every 5-10 years, you are probably going to read every review you can get your hands on. They become extraordinarily important.

tastyfishy 10y ago

It's interesting that the NY times critics wield so much power with the chefs and NY public (and maybe even american public), when there are plenty of review systems (michelin, pellegrino) that are more worldly and forward looking. IMO, New York high end cuisine has always been more about hedge fund people and old money impressing each other with higher spend, rather than better food. Maybe that's why there's an aggressive restaurant review culture that serves well to these aggressive customers (born out of finance). IMO bay area fine dining cuisine is #1 in the nation right now (NY might have even be #3, had Chicago not have some unfortunate chef deaths in the last few years) If you look at new york times's 4 star restaurants list: Le Bernardin/Jean Georges (old french cuisine, tons of sauces, boring) Per Se << French Laundry Del Posto (mario battali's strong/strange flavors are either love/hate) Quince (sf) is much more consistent and tasty. Sushi nakazawa - very good nigiri, but lacks decent cooked seafood. Yoshizumi (sf) is much better in both nigiri/cooked food, taste great, is cheaper, and the place has a great minimalistic japanese feel. And there's no direct answer from NY to Benu (out of this world Chinese), atellier crenn (if she only did desserts for all courses), saison (highly innovative), californios, mourad SF might be in top five cities in the world right now for great food (low end and high end)

hkmurakami 10y ago
Frankly cooked fish is less than irrelevant in judging a sushi joint.
dmode 10y ago
Loved your list. Though, I thought Benu was more Asian fusion rather than Chinese.
- tastyfishy 10y ago
  Thank you :) love to hear yours.
- weeks 10y ago
  Benu considers themselves to be New/Contemporary American and I have it on good authority would be highly amused by the accusation of being "out of this world Chinese" or even Asian Fusion. :)

wallace_f 10y ago

It is amazing to me that people care so much about what other people think; they want to be told what they should and should not like. There is some truth that having more practice with fine dining aids in better distinguishing flavours and textures, but most of it has to do with practice in identifying what Other Important People Tell You are desirable qualities. For example, in identifying fine wine, the average, untrained population cannot, study after study has shown, discriminate. One study(1) even showed that perceived quality and neurological response could be manipulated by simply mislabelling bottle price, regardless of actual price. Should you like or dislike food because of what someone else told you to think? Maybe being told what to think is a sign of inept judgement and a lack of resolve--a different interpretation of having a "sophisticated palate." Besides, different qualities--textures being particularly notable--can be desirable in one culture and entirely undesirable in another. My advice: Just enjoy what you like and explore whichever foods you so desire. Take time to really absorb the quality of the food, and try out reasonably priced family owned restaurants. Stop reading the NYT to tell you what to think. Particularly ridiculous addendum: This critic ordered, in the review in question, gluten free noodles even though less than 1% of the world's population has Celiac disease. If I went to work and addressed the problem I was given by tailoring it to 1% of my clients, I would be fired for being an idiot. Probably you would, too. 1) https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/baba-shiv-how-wines-price-tag-affect-its-taste https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/baba-shiv-how-wines-pr...

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
zippergz 10y ago
> It is amazing to me that people care so much about what other people think; they want to be told what they should and should not like. This is an amazingly uncharitable read on the reason that food critics exist. How about this version? There are thousands upon thousands of restaurants in NYC. Constantly opening and closing. No human in the world has time to try them all, and going to one that sucks is a wasted opportunity. So having outside sources to turn you on to good places is really valuable. If you find a restaurant critic whose taste you agree with, taking his or her recommendations can drastically improve your ratio of good to bad meals. It's no different than looking at reviews when going to a movie. If there are 15 movies playing, I'm a fool for reading reviews to help me decide what to watch? I suppose I should just try them all and then decide for myself what I like, rather than "being told what I should and should not like"?

danso 10y ago

My journalism law teacher worked at a regional paper and being the food critic was the job where she had the most direct influence on people's lives. If she wrote a positive review, she'd call the restaurant before the paper went to print to advise them to stock up. Negative reviews frequently meant that a place would shut down in the next few months. After one particular negative review, someone shot out her living room window with a shotgun. I imagine most regional papers today, if they even have a food critic, probably don't wield that much influence what with Yelp. I figure a good review by the NYT will cause a restaurant to skyrocket in popularity. I don't know how busy Dirt Candy was before its 2-star review (it's mentioned in the OP and was the first vegetarian restaurant to get 2-stars in some 10+ years), but I remember it being booked for months. I had to walk by it every night just to check if they had a cancellation to get in before I moved out of New York. But even if the NYT doesn't weigh in, there are so many blogs that cover the food scene in New York that there are plenty of ways to build buzz. (I still used Yelp to find most gems when I lived in New York though)

flashman 10y ago
A service with check-in data could probably quantify the uplift of a favourable review, by looking at the number of patrons before and after publication.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

Vera527 10y ago

This is a freaking book, not an article. Who has time to read all of this?

rdslw 10y ago

This is about people who think everybody thinks about them and cares. Nope. And wrong. Explained here why: http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html And the ones who do, do because of prestige, biases, and inability to understand they were being manipulated (into liking/not liking sth). Not to mention, that statistical difference between all this life important eating out, is not worth your attention.

london888 10y ago

I forget how important eating out can be, especially in the US.

syllogism 10y ago

The NY Times probably would be uniquely influential for fine-dining because it's likely one of the few sources of shared information. If you invite someone to an expensive restaurant that's just had a bad review, your invitation must mean either cluelessness or defiance. If you don't mean either of those two things, you should not choose that restaurant. You can't "opt out" of this system. It doesn't matter whether you believe the reviews are accurate. It doesn't matter whether you believe the other party believes the reviews are accurate. Because the review constitutes shared information, the logic of pluralistic ignorance applies. It's not clever to ignore shared information. It just leads you to communicate badly.

ghaff 10y ago
>If you invite someone to an expensive restaurant that's just had a bad review, your invitation must mean either cluelessness or defiance. How about you like the restaurant or you have recommendations from people whose tastes you share that like it? If I like a restaurant I really don't care what the newspaper or Yelp says. It's not so much defiance as disagreement. (Sure, if "the reviews" are bad for a restaurant, a movie, etc. the betting money is that it is, in fact, not that great barring other data to the contrary.)
saiya-jin 10y ago
business meetings? absolutely. anything else? meh, never enjoyed crowd sheepish mentality, no reasons to start with this. especially when things work like they do
Retric 10y ago
A huge swath of people ignore reviews by never reading them. They are only important because of how tight restaurants margins are so even a 5% dip is important.
- rasz_pl 10y ago
  > tight restaurants margins WAT????

Steko 10y ago

The HN retitling of articles is really starting to jump the shark.

tmaly 10y ago

This is one of the reasons I started my food side project https://bestfoodnearme.com https://bestfoodnearme.com the idea is to give you a list of amazing food dishes close by, so you can quickly figure out what to eat without reading reviews. I personally find it difficult to find new places to try especially when traveling. Reviews can be biased in many ways especially from competitors or dishonest restaurants. Some sites give you the feeling that the reviews are a payola type situation. I hate spending any time reading them. I just want a list of great dishes.

zappo2938 10y ago

I worked as a cook in fine dining, the two and three Michelin star level, for eleven years. Outside of being awarded Michelin stars, it's a myth that reviews have any noticeable influence on a restaurant. Never once have I ever experienced a rush of new customers after a review in the SF Weekly or the LA Times.

treehau5 10y ago

The whole first 3 paragraphs almost describes an intricate dance of restaurants having to keep up with the Times to recognize these reviewers, and the reviewers disguising themselves to get a more authentic experience. It is sort of like driving -- the best way to avoid a speeding ticket is not by having a keen eye, understanding the cop shifts and hiding spots, and when its "quota" time, the best way to avoid a ticket is to just always drive safely. Then you don't even have to worry about being pulled over. Similarly, the best way to avoid having a bad review from a fancy columnist, is to just always treat every customer as if they are special, and not have to catch yourself up in the worry of always looking out for the right people. My father was a restauranteur for 35 years, and myself for 8, I found that even if you don't get it right the first time, if the service is exceptional and you build a rapport with your clientele, you will be given a chance to make it right. Focus your efforts on the important things.

TheLarch 10y ago

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, fashion is so ugly it has to be replaced every six months. Though the Metropolitan Museum may be my favorite place on earth, I find a good portion of NYC to be repugnant. Nowhere have I seen such spineless obedience to trends and fashions. Many residents seemingly can't put on a tee shirt without worrying over it endlessly, and express a self-congratulatory air when they've gotten that tee shirt just right. They are delighted to wait for 1.5 hours to get a burrito because it's the right burrito, and the right line to be in to buy one. Hearing this guy say "my body is not my own" made me twitch and I had to stop. The difference between them and rabid football fans is a matter of degree, not quality.

daughart 10y ago
Is your position that "food critic" is not a legitimate job, or that there is no value in NYT restaurant reviews? Once you admit there is, then by definition someone's job involves a lot of eating. I think that's pretty much all he meant by saying that his body is not his own. If anything, the better comparison is with football PLAYERS, who also make bodily sacrifices in the practice of their chosen profession.
- TheLarch 10y ago
  Experience proves that food critic is a legitimate job, and sure there's economic value in restaurant review. However in my utopia it would be a low-key affair. Zeal for watching men play a game or eating seems debased to me. The remark about "my body is not my own" seemed unduly melodramatic. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d053pPV_AA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d053pPV_AA)