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Agree. And at the same time Americans have been inundated with "war" and the pro-Nationalist message that we should always, ALWAYS, 1) support our troops no ma

Agree. And at the same time Americans have been inundated with "war" and the pro-Nationalist message that we should always, ALWAYS, 1) support our troops no matter what and 2) never forget. The fear-mongering is rampant and relentless. And everyone is afraid to question it.

r_smart 10y ago
To be fair: 1) Leadership should be criticized, particularly political decisions leading to war, but I'd steer away from treating soldiers like shit. In a lot of ways this is punching down. It's mostly people from poorer families that join the military, as some of the benefits are a huge boon to getting out of poverty for them or their children. I don't know if you've ever talked to a recruiter, but...there's some powerful propaganda there for an 18 year old. Once you're signed up, you can't easily leave, and the punishments for disobedience can be severe. 2) Why should you forget? What possible good could that serve? Learn lessons from the past.
- new_hackers 10y ago
  Yes the leadership should be criticized. My point it is a brainwashing tool. My comment probably did not properly convey the nuanced and subtle ways of mind control. It goes more like this when expanded: "You cannot ever criticize our troops, or our military, because they are heroes. If you do, you are not an American. You must never forget that our troops and our military protect you always." The tautology is that the actions of our military are always justified. And this supports the parent comment that the average American has no clue what it actually means to let their military-industrial complex run rampant across the globe, because to question it would be un-American.
  - r_smart 10y ago
    I would argue that what propaganda that is there is hardly nuanced or subtle, and certainly doesn't qualify as mind control. I also think a component of it comes from how poorly vets have been treated in the past by the culture at large as well as the government they served. A lot of us have friends and family members that were hard used by their service and more or less cast aside or forgotten about. For me, the propaganda, and double-think is more around the idea of drumming up support for our troops even though, frankly, we fall pretty short of that. Granted it also gets wrapped up in patriotism, etc., but I think it's a pretty blunt tool in that regard. If anything, you could call it a right-wing version of virtue signalling I guess.
MichaelGG 10y ago
Nothing wrong with supporting the troops. Marion Le Pen was questioned on his regarding French military action a long time ago. Her correct response was to point out that the French soldiers did their job, did what they were supposed to. If apologies and shame are appropriate, it needs to be aimed at the leadership. The attitude towards Vietnam vets was disgusting, right? Drafted people forced into a pointless war. Support the people not the leaders...
- joesmo 10y ago
  "Nothing wrong with supporting the troops." That depends on what you mean by "supporting the troops." I actually have no definition or even a clear idea of what this means and I'm certain no one else does either. It's just a generic motto used for brainwashing. Does it mean that I support the individuals not dying? Because if so, then yes, I support the troops very much and I hope none of them die. Does it mean that I support what they do? Fuck no! It's atrocious and criminal. They are murdering and raping people. I would never support that. And of course, it also could mean every single nuance in between. So it's a meaningless saying that seems to exist for the solve purpose of controlling the people who refuse to question basic things. The mere fact that it can mean that I support the troops' actions (murder, rape, and even wasting trillions of dollars of our money) is reason enough for anyone to not "support the troops," and is certainly why I would never utter such an ambiguous and clearly manipulative phrase.
  - r_smart 10y ago
    >They are murdering and raping people. >I would never utter such an ambiguous and clearly manipulative phrase. Pick one.
    - joesmo 10y ago
      I don't need to. Most of my readers can process more than once sentence at a time.
      - r_smart 10y ago

r_smart 10y ago

To be fair: 1) Leadership should be criticized, particularly political decisions leading to war, but I'd steer away from treating soldiers like shit. In a lot of ways this is punching down. It's mostly people from poorer families that join the military, as some of the benefits are a huge boon to getting out of poverty for them or their children. I don't know if you've ever talked to a recruiter, but...there's some powerful propaganda there for an 18 year old. Once you're signed up, you can't easily leave, and the punishments for disobedience can be severe. 2) Why should you forget? What possible good could that serve? Learn lessons from the past.

new_hackers 10y ago
Yes the leadership should be criticized. My point it is a brainwashing tool. My comment probably did not properly convey the nuanced and subtle ways of mind control. It goes more like this when expanded: "You cannot ever criticize our troops, or our military, because they are heroes. If you do, you are not an American. You must never forget that our troops and our military protect you always." The tautology is that the actions of our military are always justified. And this supports the parent comment that the average American has no clue what it actually means to let their military-industrial complex run rampant across the globe, because to question it would be un-American.
- r_smart 10y ago
  I would argue that what propaganda that is there is hardly nuanced or subtle, and certainly doesn't qualify as mind control. I also think a component of it comes from how poorly vets have been treated in the past by the culture at large as well as the government they served. A lot of us have friends and family members that were hard used by their service and more or less cast aside or forgotten about. For me, the propaganda, and double-think is more around the idea of drumming up support for our troops even though, frankly, we fall pretty short of that. Granted it also gets wrapped up in patriotism, etc., but I think it's a pretty blunt tool in that regard. If anything, you could call it a right-wing version of virtue signalling I guess.

MichaelGG 10y ago

Nothing wrong with supporting the troops. Marion Le Pen was questioned on his regarding French military action a long time ago. Her correct response was to point out that the French soldiers did their job, did what they were supposed to. If apologies and shame are appropriate, it needs to be aimed at the leadership. The attitude towards Vietnam vets was disgusting, right? Drafted people forced into a pointless war. Support the people not the leaders...

joesmo 10y ago
"Nothing wrong with supporting the troops." That depends on what you mean by "supporting the troops." I actually have no definition or even a clear idea of what this means and I'm certain no one else does either. It's just a generic motto used for brainwashing. Does it mean that I support the individuals not dying? Because if so, then yes, I support the troops very much and I hope none of them die. Does it mean that I support what they do? Fuck no! It's atrocious and criminal. They are murdering and raping people. I would never support that. And of course, it also could mean every single nuance in between. So it's a meaningless saying that seems to exist for the solve purpose of controlling the people who refuse to question basic things. The mere fact that it can mean that I support the troops' actions (murder, rape, and even wasting trillions of dollars of our money) is reason enough for anyone to not "support the troops," and is certainly why I would never utter such an ambiguous and clearly manipulative phrase.
- r_smart 10y ago
  >They are murdering and raping people. >I would never utter such an ambiguous and clearly manipulative phrase. Pick one.
  - joesmo 10y ago
    I don't need to. Most of my readers can process more than once sentence at a time.
    - r_smart 10y ago