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>I assure you, there are a lot of us who see the basic logic around this and think we should stop worrying about the occasional nipple. I think the basic probl

>I assure you, there are a lot of us who see the basic logic around this and think we should stop worrying about the occasional nipple. I think the basic problem here is not that there aren't Americans who don't have a problem with seeing a bit of nipple, but that a majority of Americans don't seem to understand that if you censor this kind of thing from people, it makes them a lot more reactive to it when they do in fact encounter it - that is to say, by removing from society any acceptance of sex as a positive thing, American society has become far more malleable and reactive to sex - and thus can be sold more things using sex - than it should be. Sex wouldn't be a billion-dollar industry if nobody was bothered by seeing it now and then. The same position, by the way, can be taken with regard to the way Americans view their wars. The average American has no clue what it actually means to let their military-industrial complex run rampant across the globe - because they don't see the images, the video, the very real facts of the matter, on the ground. And thus, those who profit from such acts, profit.

r_smart 10y ago
So far as I know, sex is used to sell the world over. Growing up, I remember there was a fascination with racy European commercials. Depictions of sex are more normalized there, so the ads just get sexier. Sorta like violence in the US. >with regard to the way Americans view their wars It's been a long time, but as I recall, the second invasion of Iraq was the most protested war in the history of our country -- before it even started. While we don't see the full brutal detail, we understand perfectly well what it means. I'd also add that the American military serves as a proxy not just for American interests, but Western interests. We just get to bear the cost and reputation hit for these things. I don't know where you're writing from obviously, but don't be surprised if your own nation / govt has been complicit in, and benefited from American intervention.
new_hackers 10y ago
Agree. And at the same time Americans have been inundated with "war" and the pro-Nationalist message that we should always, ALWAYS, 1) support our troops no matter what and 2) never forget. The fear-mongering is rampant and relentless. And everyone is afraid to question it.
- r_smart 10y ago
  To be fair: 1) Leadership should be criticized, particularly political decisions leading to war, but I'd steer away from treating soldiers like shit. In a lot of ways this is punching down. It's mostly people from poorer families that join the military, as some of the benefits are a huge boon to getting out of poverty for them or their children. I don't know if you've ever talked to a recruiter, but...there's some powerful propaganda there for an 18 year old. Once you're signed up, you can't easily leave, and the punishments for disobedience can be severe. 2) Why should you forget? What possible good could that serve? Learn lessons from the past.
  - new_hackers 10y ago
    Yes the leadership should be criticized. My point it is a brainwashing tool. My comment probably did not properly convey the nuanced and subtle ways of mind control. It goes more like this when expanded: "You cannot ever criticize our troops, or our military, because they are heroes. If you do, you are not an American. You must never forget that our troops and our military protect you always." The tautology is that the actions of our military are always justified. And this supports the parent comment that the average American has no clue what it actually means to let their military-industrial complex run rampant across the globe, because to question it would be un-American.
    - r_smart 10y ago
      I would argue that what propaganda that is there is hardly nuanced or subtle, and certainly doesn't qualify as mind control. I also think a component of it comes from how poorly vets have been treated in the past by the culture at large as well as the government they served. A lot of us have friends and family members that were hard used by their service and more or less cast aside or forgotten about. For me, the propaganda, and double-think is more around the idea of drumming up support for our troops even though, frankly, we fall pretty short of that. Granted it also gets wrapped up in patriotism, etc., but I think it's a pretty blunt tool in that regard. If anything, you could call it a right-wing version of virtue signalling I guess.
- 10y ago
tdkl 10y ago
> if you censor this kind of thing from people, it makes them a lot more reactive to it when they do in fact encounter it - that is to say, by removing from society any acceptance of sex as a positive thing, American society has become far more malleable and reactive to sex - and thus can be sold more things using sex - than it should be. This is brilliant, I've never thought about it this way, but it makes huge sense. Control of the masses in Edward Bernays style.

r_smart 10y ago

So far as I know, sex is used to sell the world over. Growing up, I remember there was a fascination with racy European commercials. Depictions of sex are more normalized there, so the ads just get sexier. Sorta like violence in the US. >with regard to the way Americans view their wars It's been a long time, but as I recall, the second invasion of Iraq was the most protested war in the history of our country -- before it even started. While we don't see the full brutal detail, we understand perfectly well what it means. I'd also add that the American military serves as a proxy not just for American interests, but Western interests. We just get to bear the cost and reputation hit for these things. I don't know where you're writing from obviously, but don't be surprised if your own nation / govt has been complicit in, and benefited from American intervention.

new_hackers 10y ago

Agree. And at the same time Americans have been inundated with "war" and the pro-Nationalist message that we should always, ALWAYS, 1) support our troops no matter what and 2) never forget. The fear-mongering is rampant and relentless. And everyone is afraid to question it.

r_smart 10y ago
To be fair: 1) Leadership should be criticized, particularly political decisions leading to war, but I'd steer away from treating soldiers like shit. In a lot of ways this is punching down. It's mostly people from poorer families that join the military, as some of the benefits are a huge boon to getting out of poverty for them or their children. I don't know if you've ever talked to a recruiter, but...there's some powerful propaganda there for an 18 year old. Once you're signed up, you can't easily leave, and the punishments for disobedience can be severe. 2) Why should you forget? What possible good could that serve? Learn lessons from the past.
- new_hackers 10y ago
  Yes the leadership should be criticized. My point it is a brainwashing tool. My comment probably did not properly convey the nuanced and subtle ways of mind control. It goes more like this when expanded: "You cannot ever criticize our troops, or our military, because they are heroes. If you do, you are not an American. You must never forget that our troops and our military protect you always." The tautology is that the actions of our military are always justified. And this supports the parent comment that the average American has no clue what it actually means to let their military-industrial complex run rampant across the globe, because to question it would be un-American.
  - r_smart 10y ago
    I would argue that what propaganda that is there is hardly nuanced or subtle, and certainly doesn't qualify as mind control. I also think a component of it comes from how poorly vets have been treated in the past by the culture at large as well as the government they served. A lot of us have friends and family members that were hard used by their service and more or less cast aside or forgotten about. For me, the propaganda, and double-think is more around the idea of drumming up support for our troops even though, frankly, we fall pretty short of that. Granted it also gets wrapped up in patriotism, etc., but I think it's a pretty blunt tool in that regard. If anything, you could call it a right-wing version of virtue signalling I guess.
10y ago

tdkl 10y ago

> if you censor this kind of thing from people, it makes them a lot more reactive to it when they do in fact encounter it - that is to say, by removing from society any acceptance of sex as a positive thing, American society has become far more malleable and reactive to sex - and thus can be sold more things using sex - than it should be. This is brilliant, I've never thought about it this way, but it makes huge sense. Control of the masses in Edward Bernays style.