14 ms·

For 25 years, Carl Malamud has been fighting to make public information public

552 points by steven 10y ago

ebcase 10y ago
Go Carl! One way to support his work is by donating here: https://public.resource.org/ https://public.resource.org/ And to better understand his passion for this space, see his memorial speech at Aaron Swartz's memorial at the Internet Archive: https://youtu.be/VllJDnMcTzM https://youtu.be/VllJDnMcTzM
- helthanatos 10y ago
  Go! "Public knowledge is key"
- yvesmh 10y ago
  I was watching Aaron Swart'z Documentary "The Internet Boy" last night, I'm glad Malamud is still fighting.
- cure 10y ago
  Yep. Set up a recurring donation if you can - I just did.
rayiner 10y ago
> Trying to determine whether these standards should be as freely distributed as are other parts of the law, the ABA is proposing a compromise, known as Resolution 112. Malamud opposes it. Because ABA positions are taken often taken seriously by Congress, he has come to San Francisco to fight it. I don't know if the last sentence is true. Here is a list of ABA propositions from last year: http://www.americanbar.org/news/reporter_resources/midyear-meeting-2015/house-of-delegates-resolutions.html http://www.americanbar.org/news/reporter_resources/midyear-m.... Lots of feel-good stuff Congress totally ignores (e.g. urges Congress to adopt laws to protect wild animals).
mgrennan 10y ago
Keep it up Carl. Your not the only one. I help fight Westlaw and put the Oklahoma State Constitution and Statutes online. www.oklegislature.gov / tsrs_os_oc.aspx
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  As links: http://www.oklegislature.gov http://www.oklegislature.gov / http://tsrs_os_oc.aspx http://tsrs_os_oc.aspx
cletus 10y ago
This is an important style but I find this style of journalism infuriating. It's hard to follow because there'll be a bit of information and then a transition into some unrelated background before it (hopefully) circles back to the original point. It's almost like writing a college paper and having to pad out the word count. Anyway, I support the straightforward principle that the law isn't the law if it's not accessible to the public. The only question left is how do you fund standards development if you abolish the model (that predates the Internet) of selling copies. I suspect the answer is going to be different on a case by case basis. For example, general contractors and tradesmen depending on jurisdiction need to be licensed. A mix of license fees and government funding could pay for building or fire codes.
- Declanomous 10y ago
  I really like this style of writing. I find it easier to remember information that is tied to other information. A story written like this makes it much more likely I will have existing knowledge to anchor the knowledge I learn story to.
- kevin42 10y ago
  "The only question left is how do you fund standards development if you abolish the model (that predates the Internet) of selling copies. I suspect the answer is going to be different on a case by case basis." Why shouldn't congress pay for the development of the law if they are going to enact the law? I've often thought that is part of the problem. It is too easy for congress to pass laws quickly and without restriction. That is why we have so many laws, it is so easy to pass laws in a reactionary way, and to respond to private interests instead of public interests. I do think it's important to have laws like building codes, but why shouldn't the development be publicly funded?
  - lithos 10y ago
    Well the people writing them are also receiving a large amount of power when they are working in the law. The people involved have already spent massive sums on lobbying, and to me this feels like an extension of that lobbying.
anilgulecha 10y ago
I'm impressed with his writ petition to a India High Court, something most Indians would consider very daunting. Salute!
alex_hitchins 10y ago
A rubbish question, but if you build your house in accordance to the published codes but don't purchase a copy, are you infringing their copyright by adhering to the standards?
- DanBC 10y ago
  No. Unless it's a boat hull, which are specifically listed in DMCA.
  - greglindahl 10y ago
    You're answering a pretty different question. The DMCA protects particular boat hulls, not all boat hulls that follow some boat hull standard. What's really going on is that boat hull manufacturers were doing an end-run around the copyrightability of their product, similar to how furniture manufacturers and fashion designers have struggled.
- sfrailsdev 10y ago
  If I believed copyright covered them, building a house based on them would definitely be considered a transformative work.
  - x1798DE 10y ago
    I don't think it would be considered any sort of derivative work. Consider recipes (and other published algorithms). Cooked dishes are not considered a derivative of the recipe, and those are step by step instructions for creating the thing in question. Codes are one step further removed in that they give tolerances and the like, so they don't even describe an object. If I write, "You should not use md5 to store passwords." it's not like all programs storing passwords with bcrypt written by people who have read that sentence are derivatives of my copyrighted work.
    - dublinben 10y ago
      Recipes are not protected by copyright, so your example isn't very helpful.
Declanomous 10y ago
I didn't know who Carl Malamud was an hour ago, but he is close to being one of my heroes now. I moved in to a 160 year old house with a TON of problems recently. I could tell by looking at a lot of the recent work that it wasn't done up to code, but I had no idea what the correct way to do the work actually was. Homeowners are allowed to do their own work in Chicago, even without a license, but obviously you still have to follow code. Now Chicago has it's entire building code online, but a lot of the code for things like electrical and plumbing are incorporated by reference. Most of the work I've done has been based on what the guys at the supply houses have told me code is. Most people probably wouldn't consider this a problem, because they hire licensed contractors, but I've also had work done by licensed contractors that doesn't meet code, and the only way I would have known is because I called somebody who had access to the actual code. Giving people access to the code allows people to know when they are being fleeced. On a similar note, access to the building code gave me the ability to back myself up with facts in an argument with a building super who didn't want to provide any place to lock my bike. Building code in Chicago requires a certain number of places for bikes to be parked, and the only way you can avoid having a bike rack outside is if you provide an indoor space for bikes. I initially asked the building manger nicely for a place to lock or store my bike, and he basically sent out a mass email to all tenants that belittled anyone who thought that the city bike racks two blocks away were unsuitable for locking bikes. Without access to the city code, I wouldn't have been able to call him out on his bullshit. I've since used the city code several more times in arguments with him, and I've brought my fellow tenants on board. It's a really powerful tool. Before we started using the city code, the building manger would just bully anyone who dared to bring concerns to him. After my experiences with the building super, I can really only see positive effects from open laws. There are a lot of people in positions of power who avoid following the law by bullying others into doubting whether they are in the right. Being able to use the law to back yourself up is very rewarding.
- jhawkinson 10y ago
  This may not be the best example. Bike parking requirements are generally part of zoning, not building codes, and generally apply only to new construction, not existing buildings. That appears to be true in Chicago: https://chicagocode.org/17-10-0300/ https://chicagocode.org/17-10-0300/ It's good that it was helpful in convincing the building superintendent to support bicycles, but probably not so great if that's not actually what the law requires. (Perhaps your building was recently constructed and the Chicago Building department or Zoning Administrator failed to enforce the zoning code?)
hood_syntax 10y ago
Sad that this is necessary. I hope he succeeds in the end; democracy lives and breathes transparency, and it's sorely lacking it at the moment.
- rayiner 10y ago
  It's not "sad." If you place a very high value on transparency, you may wish to see a different model. But the current model isn't unreasonable. The standards incorporated into codes are industry consensus standards developed by non-profit expert organizations. It's reasonable for governments to rely on them. And under the current model, it's the entities (builders) that directly profit from construction that pay for the development of building codes. It's a very different situation form the public availability of laws and judicial opinions generally, which are within the core expertise of public bodies and are entirely publicly funded to begin with.
  - kbenson 10y ago
    What's the difference between a (building) code and a law? (Asking genuinely, since you are in a position to possibly answer authoritatively). I understand the system works currently, but I can't help but feel that my rights have been curtailed be hiding information from me that is required to exercise those rights in some cases. If SDOs provide an essential service, then I think we need to find a way to fund them that is not based on hiding knowledge of the law. Maybe that's a percentage of inspection fees, or some something else.
    - rayiner 10y ago
      > What's the difference between a (building) code and a law? (Asking genuinely, since you are in a position to possibly answer authoritatively). Building codes are laws, but they may reference external standards which are not laws. Say Congress passed a law requiring all medical device software to meet certain requirements, with one of those requirements being that it is written in conforming C99. You can't follow the law without following the standard, but the standard is not itself a law. I actually agree with you that we should find a way to fund development of building codes that allows for them to be freely-accessible. I think the ABA proposal, which requires a readable copy of the standard to be posted publicly, is not a bad approach. My point is that the existing system isn't some "sad" subversion of democracy. It's not the solution you'd pick if you value transparency above all else, but it's also not the product of some shady cabal.
Old_Thrashbarg 10y ago
It's only because of the heroic work of Carl Malamud that new services like up.codes is possible. This service will bring clarity to the insane complexity exhibited by construction regulation. (Disclaimer: I have a personal interest in that startup)
X86BSD 10y ago
The first time I heard Carl was in the early 90's on his audio program "Geek of the Week". He had all the top dogs on at the time. Mike O'Dell from UUnet, etc It was a fantastic show! I think you can find copies on the Internet Archive now. I go back and listen to them frequently. GREAT little gems packed here and there in those shows. Glad to see him getting some press!
azdle 10y ago
> (More recently, he tried another company with Rose based on the Internet of Things, but that also failed.) Anyone know where I can find more on this?
- dsr_ 10y ago
  I think this is a reference to http://thethingsystem.com/ http://thethingsystem.com/
dandare 10y ago
You are required to obey laws that are not available to you - in the time before Snowden I would find such statement extremely bizarre, now I understand secret law is a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_law
h4nkoslo 10y ago
There is a simple solution. When a state incorporates a work by reference into the law, there's a pretty cogent case that that constitutes a "taking" - ie, they've essentially seized the work for public use. Whichever legislature is doing the taking should cut a check to whomever they took the code from. It would be a similar situation if, for instance, the Nevada legislature decided they were going to put on showings of Star Wars each night in front of the capitol, or erect a copy of a copyrighted sculpture.
ArtDev 10y ago
Carl Malamud is my hero.
dragon_ninja 10y ago
This is so stupid.
micro_softy 10y ago
Is "Analyzing Sun Networks" out of print? I remember this book as being quite good. So many of those "old" Sun ideas are still around today, in one form or another.
- smellf 10y ago
  Not sure if it's out of print, but you know how ancient technical books go - you can get a copy for nothing: https://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Sun-networks-Carl-Malamud/dp/0442003668/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1473746471&sr=8-1&keywords=analyzing+sun+networks https://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Sun-networks-Carl-Malamud/d...
dfsegoat 10y ago
This is powerful. All I can say.
triplesec 10y ago
I stopped reading this on mobile because backchannel.com has the most initiative intrusive dropdown-popup nag every 10-20 seconds demanding you log in.

552 points by steven 10y ago

Go Carl! One way to support his work is by donating here: https://public.resource.org/ https://public.resource.org/ And to better understand his passion for this space, see his memorial speech at Aaron Swartz's memorial at the Internet Archive: https://youtu.be/VllJDnMcTzM https://youtu.be/VllJDnMcTzM

helthanatos 10y ago
Go! "Public knowledge is key"
yvesmh 10y ago
I was watching Aaron Swart'z Documentary "The Internet Boy" last night, I'm glad Malamud is still fighting.
cure 10y ago
Yep. Set up a recurring donation if you can - I just did.

rayiner 10y ago

> Trying to determine whether these standards should be as freely distributed as are other parts of the law, the ABA is proposing a compromise, known as Resolution 112. Malamud opposes it. Because ABA positions are taken often taken seriously by Congress, he has come to San Francisco to fight it. I don't know if the last sentence is true. Here is a list of ABA propositions from last year: http://www.americanbar.org/news/reporter_resources/midyear-meeting-2015/house-of-delegates-resolutions.html http://www.americanbar.org/news/reporter_resources/midyear-m.... Lots of feel-good stuff Congress totally ignores (e.g. urges Congress to adopt laws to protect wild animals).

mgrennan 10y ago

Keep it up Carl. Your not the only one. I help fight Westlaw and put the Oklahoma State Constitution and Statutes online. www.oklegislature.gov / tsrs_os_oc.aspx

dredmorbius 10y ago
As links: http://www.oklegislature.gov http://www.oklegislature.gov / http://tsrs_os_oc.aspx http://tsrs_os_oc.aspx

cletus 10y ago

This is an important style but I find this style of journalism infuriating. It's hard to follow because there'll be a bit of information and then a transition into some unrelated background before it (hopefully) circles back to the original point. It's almost like writing a college paper and having to pad out the word count. Anyway, I support the straightforward principle that the law isn't the law if it's not accessible to the public. The only question left is how do you fund standards development if you abolish the model (that predates the Internet) of selling copies. I suspect the answer is going to be different on a case by case basis. For example, general contractors and tradesmen depending on jurisdiction need to be licensed. A mix of license fees and government funding could pay for building or fire codes.

Declanomous 10y ago
I really like this style of writing. I find it easier to remember information that is tied to other information. A story written like this makes it much more likely I will have existing knowledge to anchor the knowledge I learn story to.
kevin42 10y ago
"The only question left is how do you fund standards development if you abolish the model (that predates the Internet) of selling copies. I suspect the answer is going to be different on a case by case basis." Why shouldn't congress pay for the development of the law if they are going to enact the law? I've often thought that is part of the problem. It is too easy for congress to pass laws quickly and without restriction. That is why we have so many laws, it is so easy to pass laws in a reactionary way, and to respond to private interests instead of public interests. I do think it's important to have laws like building codes, but why shouldn't the development be publicly funded?
- lithos 10y ago
  Well the people writing them are also receiving a large amount of power when they are working in the law. The people involved have already spent massive sums on lobbying, and to me this feels like an extension of that lobbying.

anilgulecha 10y ago

I'm impressed with his writ petition to a India High Court, something most Indians would consider very daunting. Salute!

alex_hitchins 10y ago

A rubbish question, but if you build your house in accordance to the published codes but don't purchase a copy, are you infringing their copyright by adhering to the standards?

DanBC 10y ago
No. Unless it's a boat hull, which are specifically listed in DMCA.
- greglindahl 10y ago
  You're answering a pretty different question. The DMCA protects particular boat hulls, not all boat hulls that follow some boat hull standard. What's really going on is that boat hull manufacturers were doing an end-run around the copyrightability of their product, similar to how furniture manufacturers and fashion designers have struggled.
sfrailsdev 10y ago
If I believed copyright covered them, building a house based on them would definitely be considered a transformative work.
- x1798DE 10y ago
  I don't think it would be considered any sort of derivative work. Consider recipes (and other published algorithms). Cooked dishes are not considered a derivative of the recipe, and those are step by step instructions for creating the thing in question. Codes are one step further removed in that they give tolerances and the like, so they don't even describe an object. If I write, "You should not use md5 to store passwords." it's not like all programs storing passwords with bcrypt written by people who have read that sentence are derivatives of my copyrighted work.
  - dublinben 10y ago
    Recipes are not protected by copyright, so your example isn't very helpful.

Declanomous 10y ago

I didn't know who Carl Malamud was an hour ago, but he is close to being one of my heroes now. I moved in to a 160 year old house with a TON of problems recently. I could tell by looking at a lot of the recent work that it wasn't done up to code, but I had no idea what the correct way to do the work actually was. Homeowners are allowed to do their own work in Chicago, even without a license, but obviously you still have to follow code. Now Chicago has it's entire building code online, but a lot of the code for things like electrical and plumbing are incorporated by reference. Most of the work I've done has been based on what the guys at the supply houses have told me code is. Most people probably wouldn't consider this a problem, because they hire licensed contractors, but I've also had work done by licensed contractors that doesn't meet code, and the only way I would have known is because I called somebody who had access to the actual code. Giving people access to the code allows people to know when they are being fleeced. On a similar note, access to the building code gave me the ability to back myself up with facts in an argument with a building super who didn't want to provide any place to lock my bike. Building code in Chicago requires a certain number of places for bikes to be parked, and the only way you can avoid having a bike rack outside is if you provide an indoor space for bikes. I initially asked the building manger nicely for a place to lock or store my bike, and he basically sent out a mass email to all tenants that belittled anyone who thought that the city bike racks two blocks away were unsuitable for locking bikes. Without access to the city code, I wouldn't have been able to call him out on his bullshit. I've since used the city code several more times in arguments with him, and I've brought my fellow tenants on board. It's a really powerful tool. Before we started using the city code, the building manger would just bully anyone who dared to bring concerns to him. After my experiences with the building super, I can really only see positive effects from open laws. There are a lot of people in positions of power who avoid following the law by bullying others into doubting whether they are in the right. Being able to use the law to back yourself up is very rewarding.

jhawkinson 10y ago
This may not be the best example. Bike parking requirements are generally part of zoning, not building codes, and generally apply only to new construction, not existing buildings. That appears to be true in Chicago: https://chicagocode.org/17-10-0300/ https://chicagocode.org/17-10-0300/ It's good that it was helpful in convincing the building superintendent to support bicycles, but probably not so great if that's not actually what the law requires. (Perhaps your building was recently constructed and the Chicago Building department or Zoning Administrator failed to enforce the zoning code?)

hood_syntax 10y ago

Sad that this is necessary. I hope he succeeds in the end; democracy lives and breathes transparency, and it's sorely lacking it at the moment.

rayiner 10y ago
It's not "sad." If you place a very high value on transparency, you may wish to see a different model. But the current model isn't unreasonable. The standards incorporated into codes are industry consensus standards developed by non-profit expert organizations. It's reasonable for governments to rely on them. And under the current model, it's the entities (builders) that directly profit from construction that pay for the development of building codes. It's a very different situation form the public availability of laws and judicial opinions generally, which are within the core expertise of public bodies and are entirely publicly funded to begin with.
- kbenson 10y ago
  What's the difference between a (building) code and a law? (Asking genuinely, since you are in a position to possibly answer authoritatively). I understand the system works currently, but I can't help but feel that my rights have been curtailed be hiding information from me that is required to exercise those rights in some cases. If SDOs provide an essential service, then I think we need to find a way to fund them that is not based on hiding knowledge of the law. Maybe that's a percentage of inspection fees, or some something else.
  - rayiner 10y ago
    > What's the difference between a (building) code and a law? (Asking genuinely, since you are in a position to possibly answer authoritatively). Building codes are laws, but they may reference external standards which are not laws. Say Congress passed a law requiring all medical device software to meet certain requirements, with one of those requirements being that it is written in conforming C99. You can't follow the law without following the standard, but the standard is not itself a law. I actually agree with you that we should find a way to fund development of building codes that allows for them to be freely-accessible. I think the ABA proposal, which requires a readable copy of the standard to be posted publicly, is not a bad approach. My point is that the existing system isn't some "sad" subversion of democracy. It's not the solution you'd pick if you value transparency above all else, but it's also not the product of some shady cabal.

Old_Thrashbarg 10y ago

It's only because of the heroic work of Carl Malamud that new services like up.codes is possible. This service will bring clarity to the insane complexity exhibited by construction regulation. (Disclaimer: I have a personal interest in that startup)

X86BSD 10y ago

The first time I heard Carl was in the early 90's on his audio program "Geek of the Week". He had all the top dogs on at the time. Mike O'Dell from UUnet, etc It was a fantastic show! I think you can find copies on the Internet Archive now. I go back and listen to them frequently. GREAT little gems packed here and there in those shows. Glad to see him getting some press!

azdle 10y ago

> (More recently, he tried another company with Rose based on the Internet of Things, but that also failed.) Anyone know where I can find more on this?

dsr_ 10y ago
I think this is a reference to http://thethingsystem.com/ http://thethingsystem.com/

dandare 10y ago

You are required to obey laws that are not available to you - in the time before Snowden I would find such statement extremely bizarre, now I understand secret law is a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_law

h4nkoslo 10y ago

There is a simple solution. When a state incorporates a work by reference into the law, there's a pretty cogent case that that constitutes a "taking" - ie, they've essentially seized the work for public use. Whichever legislature is doing the taking should cut a check to whomever they took the code from. It would be a similar situation if, for instance, the Nevada legislature decided they were going to put on showings of Star Wars each night in front of the capitol, or erect a copy of a copyrighted sculpture.

ArtDev 10y ago

Carl Malamud is my hero.

dragon_ninja 10y ago

This is so stupid.

micro_softy 10y ago

Is "Analyzing Sun Networks" out of print? I remember this book as being quite good. So many of those "old" Sun ideas are still around today, in one form or another.

smellf 10y ago
Not sure if it's out of print, but you know how ancient technical books go - you can get a copy for nothing: https://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Sun-networks-Carl-Malamud/dp/0442003668/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1473746471&sr=8-1&keywords=analyzing+sun+networks https://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Sun-networks-Carl-Malamud/d...

dfsegoat 10y ago

This is powerful. All I can say.

triplesec 10y ago

I stopped reading this on mobile because backchannel.com has the most initiative intrusive dropdown-popup nag every 10-20 seconds demanding you log in.