4 ms·

Some people have already mentioned GWT. I think this is the best evidence that yes, web programming is extremely hackish. GWT is an entire framework to write we

Some people have already mentioned GWT. I think this is the best evidence that yes, web programming is extremely hackish. GWT is an entire framework to write web applications in a strongly typed language - it compiles Java down to JavaScript. GWT was made in an era that we're just now escaping: the era of browser quirks. IMHO, GWT didn't take off because of one reason: Its target demographic, web developers, do not have the same technical training as traditional computer scientists. What I mean by that is courses at places like General Assembly, CodeAcademy, and even KhanAcademy emphasize JavaScript/CSS/HTML paradigm. This triad makes it easy to create very nice looking website in very little time, but there's little focus on code organization, software design, efficiency, etc. It's much more of, "Now we want this box to fade out when we click on this button, let's see how we can write a function that makes this happen."

crgwbr 10y ago
This frustrates me every day. The CodeAcadamy approach is a good start—it gets people interested and involved very quickly—but it's not enough on its own. Basics of architecture and design absolutely need to be understood to be a good developer. At the very least they should emphasis the importance of software design and being mentored by more senior devs. As it is now, it seems many people leave those academy's thinking that they know everything they need to or that "coding" is actually what software development is all about. It's not. Coding is a tool of implementation. Design is our real job.
emodendroket 10y ago
It's not as though every working desktop application developer is really familiar with CS concepts either, although I agree they deserve more attention.
brlewis 10y ago
That reason doesn't explain why it didn't take off within Google.
ng12 10y ago
> Its target demographic, web developers, do not have the same technical training as traditional computer scientists I think this is the money quote, and the reason why this thread is full of such ill-informed opinions. I have a degree in CS. I've done systems programming, devops, and mobile before settling on web. Just recently I joined a company of very strong back-end people with a severe dearth of people who have any knowledge or interest about web. The web doesn't have to be that bad -- just for some reason, it's the orphan child """real programmers""" don't work with.
- prewett 10y ago
  As a Real Programmer who started his career right when the web took off, I can tell you why. At first, web apps were CGI scripts, so back-end only. But most of the jobs were in native applications. At some point you play around with interactive web page, and the DOM is a mess, browsers all behave differently and you give it up in frustration. Swing, Qt, Win32, are all not bad, and act quite predictably. Then you see web apps start coming, but they are slow, and you still have that bad experience from earlier. Then you start reading HN and notice that every six months the new thing changes, and you say, "hm, Swing, Qt, Win32 don't need to change all the time, something about this web app stuff smells like Done Wrong," and you avoid it like the plague. And when you talk to your non-profit friends who are setting up an online store, they are all hiring some guy to do it in WordPress, and it takes 7 seconds to load, 50+ JS files, and 30+ CSS files (I kid you not), and you don't even want to talk shop with that kind of developer.
- barefootcoder 10y ago
  It's funny you say that, because that's exactly why I avoided it for so long.

crgwbr 10y ago

This frustrates me every day. The CodeAcadamy approach is a good start—it gets people interested and involved very quickly—but it's not enough on its own. Basics of architecture and design absolutely need to be understood to be a good developer. At the very least they should emphasis the importance of software design and being mentored by more senior devs. As it is now, it seems many people leave those academy's thinking that they know everything they need to or that "coding" is actually what software development is all about. It's not. Coding is a tool of implementation. Design is our real job.

emodendroket 10y ago

It's not as though every working desktop application developer is really familiar with CS concepts either, although I agree they deserve more attention.

brlewis 10y ago

That reason doesn't explain why it didn't take off within Google.

ng12 10y ago

> Its target demographic, web developers, do not have the same technical training as traditional computer scientists I think this is the money quote, and the reason why this thread is full of such ill-informed opinions. I have a degree in CS. I've done systems programming, devops, and mobile before settling on web. Just recently I joined a company of very strong back-end people with a severe dearth of people who have any knowledge or interest about web. The web doesn't have to be that bad -- just for some reason, it's the orphan child """real programmers""" don't work with.

prewett 10y ago
As a Real Programmer who started his career right when the web took off, I can tell you why. At first, web apps were CGI scripts, so back-end only. But most of the jobs were in native applications. At some point you play around with interactive web page, and the DOM is a mess, browsers all behave differently and you give it up in frustration. Swing, Qt, Win32, are all not bad, and act quite predictably. Then you see web apps start coming, but they are slow, and you still have that bad experience from earlier. Then you start reading HN and notice that every six months the new thing changes, and you say, "hm, Swing, Qt, Win32 don't need to change all the time, something about this web app stuff smells like Done Wrong," and you avoid it like the plague. And when you talk to your non-profit friends who are setting up an online store, they are all hiring some guy to do it in WordPress, and it takes 7 seconds to load, 50+ JS files, and 30+ CSS files (I kid you not), and you don't even want to talk shop with that kind of developer.
barefootcoder 10y ago
It's funny you say that, because that's exactly why I avoided it for so long.