7 ms·

It is scary how most commenters here are missing the point. No, not all programming sucks. Yes, web programming sucks more than other things. No, it doesn't

by meshko 10y ago

It is scary how most commenters here are missing the point. No, not all programming sucks. Yes, web programming sucks more than other things. No, it doesn't have to be like this. Yes, even web programming was better 10 years ago. No, I don't know how to fix it. Neither do I know exactly where we took the wrong turn. One of my theories is this: had Sun not sued Microsoft over their extensions in JVM, MS would have kept working on their awesomely fast JVM implementation for Windows. That would make Java fast and not sucky in browsers. It would have kept Java Applets as a viable rich web app development option. Flash would have never risen. Java, being a significantly superior language to ActionScript, would have allowed us to build nice RIAs in an efficient, secure and portable way. Gmail and Google Maps would have been implemented in Java. Isometric Java. Get it? Get it? Back end and front end are written in the same language with strong typing and all that. JavaScript would have been dead by now. World would have been a better place.

nixos 10y ago
Or it would have turned into ActiveX. Great on Windows, not so great (if extant) on anything else. If anything, Flash was multi-platform. You got the same flash on Linux, Mac and Windows. "Microsoft Java" would be anything but.
- meshko 10y ago
  Sure, that's possible, but not necessary. Devs might have been smart enough to stay away from extensions. Microsoft might have been smart enough to not push it too hard. Your example of ActiveX actual supports that -- ActiveX never became super widespread, remaining a niche thing. Also keep in mind that this was only few years before OS X was released bringing the 2nd consumer desktop OS back onto the market.
  - nixos 10y ago
    Microsoft then had a near complete monopoly on anything computers. If you remember how Mozilla had to include all the IE6 mistakes all web programmers assumed were standard? And yes, back then definitely Microsoft was in EEE mode. They would do anything they possibly could do to keep the internet Windows only
    - meshko 10y ago
      They settled in 2001. OS X was released same year, signaling the beginning of the end of that monopoly.
      - nixos 10y ago
        OSX had little market share. I mean, it still has a relatively small market. If you can save a week's work and make your site work on 97% of computers, or spend another week to get it to 99%, what would you do? And in truth, Mozilla/Opera/other HTML browsers had around 10 percent of marketshare even during the heydays of IE6's reign, and yet plenty of websites only worked on IE6. Would programmers care about those five percent of Mac users?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
nixos 10y ago
Java had another big problem. It couldn't interact with DOM properly. I mean, it could. But it was terribly hackish and anyways involved Javascript. So you had one of two options: 1. Write an HTML webpage or 2. Write an empty webpage with a large Java applet in the center, which would be function as a "virtual terminal". Both are ugly. That's why Sun created Java Web Start (IIRC), for complicated Java applications which could be loaded from the Internet. Perhaps Google Docs could have done something like that, but I like the current UI more than the "potential Java Google Docs". The only thing Google Docs now can't do is Cntrl-S or something like that. Also, don't forget the real reason (existing) Java Applets died - security.
- meshko 10y ago
  Sure, as said in other threads here -- large companies full of brilliant people can build good RIAs. Small companies full of OK people are suffering. Java Applets security could have been solved. I'm not even sure what problem you are referring to exactly. With todays web we get insanity of XSSs, CSRF and who knows what else. The only reason these are not killing modern web development is because this hydra has too many heads.
  - nixos 10y ago
    >XSSs, CSRF Java had drive-by malware downloads galore. Unfortunately, Javascript isn't immune from this, probably for the same reason: to increase performance requirements, they both JIT code, which allows potential buffer overflows, etc.
    - rer 10y ago
      This doesn't sound like the full explanation about the security problems of Java applets. It sounds more like a JIT bug. One can fix the JIT to check for out of bounds errors. What's the real reason Java applets were insecure?
- flukus 10y ago
  Web start has to be one of the best web technologies that almost no one ever heard of. It had most of the benefits of the web for LOB apps, and most consumer apps are probably better off not being web based in the first place.
emilburzo 10y ago
> Back end and front end are written in the same language with strong typing and all that. Exactly why I love GWT, even though it seems that it's not popular anymore. It gets the job done, refactoring is not an error-prone and painful experience and it's fast because it's transpiled to javascript.
- gjvc 10y ago
  GWT + GXT, vaadin, or smart client are examples of this.
segmondy 10y ago
I'm sorry but I beg to differ, web programming 10 years ago was a nightmare. It's much better today. It's not web programming that sucks, it's programming with others. I bet most people won't complain much if they got choose what tools they wanted and worked alone. When working with others, different ideas and opinion clash heavily. Programmers are not best known for their awesome communication and the lack of it leads to more mental strain than necessary. The reality is that one can drive the frontend with 100% javascript no frameworks, html, css, keep things simple avoid the framework nightmare. Use typescript if the project is large enough. How come people are not doing this? Because they are not putting in the time to learn the language, it's all about learning framework. I see the same in backends, people who know rails but not ruby, laravel but not not enough php, android framework but not enough java. This is the problem.
- johncolanduoni 10y ago
  How can programming with others be the reason, if the OP is saying they find programming for the web with others is much harder than applications development with others?
  - talmand 10y ago
    You cannot assume that the others with web programming is the same others with application programming. The result of one doesn't have to match the other.
    - johncolanduoni 10y ago
      Okay, but then how can an observer uninformed on the composition and dynamics of either group conclude that's the real reason it sucks? Unless they're slandering web developers but didn't make that clear?
      - talmand 10y ago
        My feelings are that they were speaking badly of web devs.
scotty79 10y ago
> Yes, even web programming was better 10 years ago. I've been doing this for over 10 years and no, it was way, way worse.
Doctor_Fegg 10y ago
> Java, being a significantly superior language to ActionScript ActionScript 3 was all right. A bit too listener-heavy but a mature, reliable, comprehensible language, and arguably lighter and more approachable than Java. Had Microsoft (among others) not nobbled it back in 2008, we might be using it as the next generation of JavaScript (ES4) by now.
- meshko 10y ago
  ActionScript was all right, I don't disagree. Especially compared to JavaScript. But i think it would have been nice to have the same language on FE and BE.
arvinsim 10y ago
Supporting IE browsers were a nightmare....
kowdermeister 10y ago
> Yes, even web programming was better 10 years ago You are not serious :) Don't you remember IE5/6? Loads if inconsistent implementations and flash that supposed to fix all pain?
- meshko 10y ago
  I'm saying there was hope. I remember 2005. IE was getting better. Chrome/Firefox/Opera were close enough, once I got one of them working i barely had to do anything. So it was essentially targeting 2 platforms (IE and non-IE) and hoping IE would get fixed. Today that problem is largely solved, but we have created an unmanageable lasagna of complexity in the process.

by meshko 10y ago

nixos 10y ago

Or it would have turned into ActiveX. Great on Windows, not so great (if extant) on anything else. If anything, Flash was multi-platform. You got the same flash on Linux, Mac and Windows. "Microsoft Java" would be anything but.

meshko 10y ago
Sure, that's possible, but not necessary. Devs might have been smart enough to stay away from extensions. Microsoft might have been smart enough to not push it too hard. Your example of ActiveX actual supports that -- ActiveX never became super widespread, remaining a niche thing. Also keep in mind that this was only few years before OS X was released bringing the 2nd consumer desktop OS back onto the market.
- nixos 10y ago
  Microsoft then had a near complete monopoly on anything computers. If you remember how Mozilla had to include all the IE6 mistakes all web programmers assumed were standard? And yes, back then definitely Microsoft was in EEE mode. They would do anything they possibly could do to keep the internet Windows only
  - meshko 10y ago
    They settled in 2001. OS X was released same year, signaling the beginning of the end of that monopoly.
    - nixos 10y ago
      OSX had little market share. I mean, it still has a relatively small market. If you can save a week's work and make your site work on 97% of computers, or spend another week to get it to 99%, what would you do? And in truth, Mozilla/Opera/other HTML browsers had around 10 percent of marketshare even during the heydays of IE6's reign, and yet plenty of websites only worked on IE6. Would programmers care about those five percent of Mac users?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

nixos 10y ago

Java had another big problem. It couldn't interact with DOM properly. I mean, it could. But it was terribly hackish and anyways involved Javascript. So you had one of two options: 1. Write an HTML webpage or 2. Write an empty webpage with a large Java applet in the center, which would be function as a "virtual terminal". Both are ugly. That's why Sun created Java Web Start (IIRC), for complicated Java applications which could be loaded from the Internet. Perhaps Google Docs could have done something like that, but I like the current UI more than the "potential Java Google Docs". The only thing Google Docs now can't do is Cntrl-S or something like that. Also, don't forget the real reason (existing) Java Applets died - security.

meshko 10y ago
Sure, as said in other threads here -- large companies full of brilliant people can build good RIAs. Small companies full of OK people are suffering. Java Applets security could have been solved. I'm not even sure what problem you are referring to exactly. With todays web we get insanity of XSSs, CSRF and who knows what else. The only reason these are not killing modern web development is because this hydra has too many heads.
- nixos 10y ago
  >XSSs, CSRF Java had drive-by malware downloads galore. Unfortunately, Javascript isn't immune from this, probably for the same reason: to increase performance requirements, they both JIT code, which allows potential buffer overflows, etc.
  - rer 10y ago
    This doesn't sound like the full explanation about the security problems of Java applets. It sounds more like a JIT bug. One can fix the JIT to check for out of bounds errors. What's the real reason Java applets were insecure?
flukus 10y ago
Web start has to be one of the best web technologies that almost no one ever heard of. It had most of the benefits of the web for LOB apps, and most consumer apps are probably better off not being web based in the first place.

emilburzo 10y ago

> Back end and front end are written in the same language with strong typing and all that. Exactly why I love GWT, even though it seems that it's not popular anymore. It gets the job done, refactoring is not an error-prone and painful experience and it's fast because it's transpiled to javascript.

gjvc 10y ago
GWT + GXT, vaadin, or smart client are examples of this.

segmondy 10y ago

I'm sorry but I beg to differ, web programming 10 years ago was a nightmare. It's much better today. It's not web programming that sucks, it's programming with others. I bet most people won't complain much if they got choose what tools they wanted and worked alone. When working with others, different ideas and opinion clash heavily. Programmers are not best known for their awesome communication and the lack of it leads to more mental strain than necessary. The reality is that one can drive the frontend with 100% javascript no frameworks, html, css, keep things simple avoid the framework nightmare. Use typescript if the project is large enough. How come people are not doing this? Because they are not putting in the time to learn the language, it's all about learning framework. I see the same in backends, people who know rails but not ruby, laravel but not not enough php, android framework but not enough java. This is the problem.

johncolanduoni 10y ago
How can programming with others be the reason, if the OP is saying they find programming for the web with others is much harder than applications development with others?
- talmand 10y ago
  You cannot assume that the others with web programming is the same others with application programming. The result of one doesn't have to match the other.
  - johncolanduoni 10y ago
    Okay, but then how can an observer uninformed on the composition and dynamics of either group conclude that's the real reason it sucks? Unless they're slandering web developers but didn't make that clear?
    - talmand 10y ago
      My feelings are that they were speaking badly of web devs.

scotty79 10y ago

> Yes, even web programming was better 10 years ago. I've been doing this for over 10 years and no, it was way, way worse.

Doctor_Fegg 10y ago

> Java, being a significantly superior language to ActionScript ActionScript 3 was all right. A bit too listener-heavy but a mature, reliable, comprehensible language, and arguably lighter and more approachable than Java. Had Microsoft (among others) not nobbled it back in 2008, we might be using it as the next generation of JavaScript (ES4) by now.

meshko 10y ago
ActionScript was all right, I don't disagree. Especially compared to JavaScript. But i think it would have been nice to have the same language on FE and BE.

arvinsim 10y ago

Supporting IE browsers were a nightmare....

kowdermeister 10y ago

> Yes, even web programming was better 10 years ago You are not serious :) Don't you remember IE5/6? Loads if inconsistent implementations and flash that supposed to fix all pain?

meshko 10y ago
I'm saying there was hope. I remember 2005. IE was getting better. Chrome/Firefox/Opera were close enough, once I got one of them working i barely had to do anything. So it was essentially targeting 2 platforms (IE and non-IE) and hoping IE would get fixed. Today that problem is largely solved, but we have created an unmanageable lasagna of complexity in the process.