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Yeah, this is just sad. I know people personally that worked their asses off learning systems programming, algorithms, and advanced mathematics at top-tier fou

Yeah, this is just sad. I know people personally that worked their asses off learning systems programming, algorithms, and advanced mathematics at top-tier four-year colleges with absolutely fantastic technical CVs that got offers that aren't even half of that. These are surely some of the smartest people in the world, too, but I suppose they don't play the "bluffing" game all too well (er, "negotation" -- call it whatever you want, ex-poker player). I'm not sure what makes this guy who ostensibly got his hand held through a three-month "learn to copy and paste Ruby from StackOverflow" camp eligible for a salary that is higher than some surgeons make. Without reading the article, sounds like he successfully bluffed to one company that another offered him some really high salary X, and then he went straight to the moon (or should I say, made out like a bandit) from there. As much as we like to think our hiring process is meritocratic, when confronted with someone with just the right physical characteristics or the right charismatic charm, our human social biases still seem to have a lot more power over us than we'd like to admit. I remember that one study that successfully correlated inches in height/stature to substantial dollar increases in salary.

tamana 10y ago
You don't understand how supply and demand works, or that job offers are for how smart you are and what you can do, not how hard you worked in school. In fact, people who work harder to learn something are usually less talented than people who learned it quickly. The computer details aren't the hard part of software jobs.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
jc4p 10y ago
I wouldn't call it sad at all. It's all a game, and these are the people that are playing to win (by their definition of "winning", which is a lot of people's: maximizing monetary gains) I agree with a lot of what you say (and in fact, I work at a company that doesn't allow negotiations at all and has an open salary calculator: http://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator http://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator ) but I wouldn't call it sad at all, I would call it playing the game. I'm saying without any attempt at being rude: You're thinking way too much like a programmer.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- jcadam 10y ago
  Thanks for the calculator. It's good to get an idea what some companies are willing to pay (I have an offer from another company that merely matches my current salary (though they have better benefits), and I've been agonizing over it). There's a possibility I'm above market rate already -- I live in a low COL area and that calculator about matches my current salary if I'm a skill level '2'. One thing that struck me, that location adjustment for high COL cities isn't nearly enough. If I was working for SO, I'd definitely want to be remote.
arkadiyt 10y ago
I disagree. From his about page: > I quickly rose to the top of my class, and after two months into the three-month bootcamp, I was asked to join the instructional team. Three months later, I was promoted to Director of Product. That wouldn't have happened if he wasn't good at what he does. Clearly he is doing something that is more than just the right charm. Also, letting go of whatever opinion you have about his technical skill, absolutely everyone should negotiate their salary. I never have though, for many of the reasons outlined in his first post. Thanks to his writing I will definitely negotiate whenever my next change happens and apply his techniques - his writing has provided a huge amount of value to engineers everywhere in the same position.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  > That wouldn't have happened if he wasn't good at what he does. Never underestimate the immense power of bullshit. I've seen people rise through the ranks fueled by nothing but it. I know senior software engineers who cannot write code, but can look great TALKING about code. I know engineering managers who cannot manage, but can self-promote and dazzle you in an interview. It's truly an art.
_gjav 10y ago
He didn't get a 250k salary, that was total compensation, largely RSUs on a standard vesting schedule. He also donates 1/3rd of his pre-tax income to charity. He wasn't just a graduate of a hacker bootcamp, he was hired on by App Academy after he finished and was quickly promoted up to Director of Product. He spent a lot of time teaching people how to pass whiteboard interviews. He was probably better prepared for an interview than your average Stanford CS grad, and already had prior experience as Director of Product and a portfolio of side projects. He didn't bluff any company. He went through Triple Byte, the trendiest new tech recruitment startup. He got an offer from Triple Byte themselves even though he didn't even apply for them, got an offer from Google, and when word about the Google offer got out every other company started bidding for him. He's also just a really smart guy in general. If you spend 15 minutes talking to him, he'll leave an impression. It's not a bluff or a con, he's just a really smart, really analytical guy.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  You made some very valid points, and I'd like to point a few things out: "He didn't get a 250k salary, that was total compensation, largely RSUs on a standard vesting schedule." Yes, and he purposefully chose (as he describes) the more "illiquid" of two offers. "He also donates 1/3rd of his pre-tax income to charity." Admirable and very commendable (I can't stress how much I really respect this about him), but irrelevant. "If you spend 15 minutes talking to him, he'll leave an impression." -- the definition of "charisma"
- Apocryphon 10y ago
  Sounds like less of an indictment of him, and more of an indictment of the software interview process in SV and shark-feeding nature of the bubble.
  - Hydraulix989 10y ago
    Yes, I am less interested in the details of his specific case (I realize I might have made some rash judgments earlier on), and more interested in furthering the discussion behind the general trends underlying the Valley's hiring processes and brainstorming ways to possibly even improve them.
HiFaraz 10y ago
FYI, he's actually quite technically talented. Let's assume less and RTFA more. http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii/ http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii... Excerpt: ... many people are drawing the conclusion that I primarily got a job at Airbnb by being really good at negotiating, or gaming the system, or something like that. If you have ever done a software engineering interview, you would know that this is completely absurd. There is no way to negotiate or charm someone into passing a software engineering interview. Much less 8 of them. If you don’t know the ins and outs of object-oriented programming, database design, asymptotic analysis, binary search trees, or how to improve the cache efficiency of an algorithm, then you’re not going to pass a computer science-heavy interview at a top company. You don’t even have a shot at it. The moral of my story is not “get really good at negotiating and you’ll get a great job.” Negotiating is important, and I certainly encourage everyone to negotiate! But first, get good at the thing you’re doing. Then worry about negotiating. I moved to San Francisco from Austin, Texas about a year ago because I decided I was going to earn-to-give. Since then I’ve been relentlessly trying to build a new career for myself, so I could earn more and donate more to charity. Entering into App Academy, barely knowing the basics of Ruby, I came into the office and grinded every day, spending 80+ hour weeks just coding and studying. I’d come in at 9AM in the morning and leave around midnight, 7 days a week, sleeping in a bunk bed in SOMA in a 200 square feet shared room. It’s certainly true that I probably have a mind that’s well-suited for coding. But it’s also true that I outworked almost everyone who was in my cohort. And when I was hired by App Academy to help teach the course, I continued working as hard as I could to get good at this. I still stayed late in the evenings, I still came into the office on weekends alongside the students just to continue coding and learning more. I started an algorithms study group in the evenings where I taught students new algorithms that I had read about, and wrote specs and instructions to guide them through the implementation. I took over our entire algorithms curriculum and taught well over 100 students the basics of data structures and algorithms. And of course, I was scared that none of this would matter. That having been an English major, having a non-traditional background, being 26 and too old to transition into tech, competing against 20 year olds who’d been coding since they were 10, I thought I must have no chance. Thankfully, I was wrong. And I’m very, very lucky that I was wrong, because I was almost right.
- 10y ago
cloudjacker 10y ago
lol would it make you feel better to learn that 1/3rd of that salary is RSUs? Or will it make you feel worse to feel that he was denied the position at AirBnB but made some phone calls? Its cool, learn how to play your cards, and this guy already had a track record of successfully doing that
mccolin 10y ago
The article contains excellent negotiation advice and its cornerstone element is honesty. Regardless of the author's history, this advice is solid.
akhilcacharya 10y ago
>I know people personally that worked their asses off learning systems programming, algorithms, and advanced mathematics at top-tier four-year colleges with absolutely fantastic technical CVs that got offers that aren't even half of that. Hold up, by this logic does this mean that people who don't have these things (no advanced math, no top-tier 4 year school) should receive salaries that are even less than half of that?
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  No, that's the logical fallacy of "denying the antecedent."

tamana 10y ago

You don't understand how supply and demand works, or that job offers are for how smart you are and what you can do, not how hard you worked in school. In fact, people who work harder to learn something are usually less talented than people who learned it quickly. The computer details aren't the hard part of software jobs.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

jc4p 10y ago

I wouldn't call it sad at all. It's all a game, and these are the people that are playing to win (by their definition of "winning", which is a lot of people's: maximizing monetary gains) I agree with a lot of what you say (and in fact, I work at a company that doesn't allow negotiations at all and has an open salary calculator: http://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator http://stackoverflow.com/company/salary/calculator ) but I wouldn't call it sad at all, I would call it playing the game. I'm saying without any attempt at being rude: You're thinking way too much like a programmer.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
jcadam 10y ago
Thanks for the calculator. It's good to get an idea what some companies are willing to pay (I have an offer from another company that merely matches my current salary (though they have better benefits), and I've been agonizing over it). There's a possibility I'm above market rate already -- I live in a low COL area and that calculator about matches my current salary if I'm a skill level '2'. One thing that struck me, that location adjustment for high COL cities isn't nearly enough. If I was working for SO, I'd definitely want to be remote.

arkadiyt 10y ago

I disagree. From his about page: > I quickly rose to the top of my class, and after two months into the three-month bootcamp, I was asked to join the instructional team. Three months later, I was promoted to Director of Product. That wouldn't have happened if he wasn't good at what he does. Clearly he is doing something that is more than just the right charm. Also, letting go of whatever opinion you have about his technical skill, absolutely everyone should negotiate their salary. I never have though, for many of the reasons outlined in his first post. Thanks to his writing I will definitely negotiate whenever my next change happens and apply his techniques - his writing has provided a huge amount of value to engineers everywhere in the same position.

ryandrake 10y ago
> That wouldn't have happened if he wasn't good at what he does. Never underestimate the immense power of bullshit. I've seen people rise through the ranks fueled by nothing but it. I know senior software engineers who cannot write code, but can look great TALKING about code. I know engineering managers who cannot manage, but can self-promote and dazzle you in an interview. It's truly an art.

_gjav 10y ago

He didn't get a 250k salary, that was total compensation, largely RSUs on a standard vesting schedule. He also donates 1/3rd of his pre-tax income to charity. He wasn't just a graduate of a hacker bootcamp, he was hired on by App Academy after he finished and was quickly promoted up to Director of Product. He spent a lot of time teaching people how to pass whiteboard interviews. He was probably better prepared for an interview than your average Stanford CS grad, and already had prior experience as Director of Product and a portfolio of side projects. He didn't bluff any company. He went through Triple Byte, the trendiest new tech recruitment startup. He got an offer from Triple Byte themselves even though he didn't even apply for them, got an offer from Google, and when word about the Google offer got out every other company started bidding for him. He's also just a really smart guy in general. If you spend 15 minutes talking to him, he'll leave an impression. It's not a bluff or a con, he's just a really smart, really analytical guy.

Hydraulix989 10y ago
You made some very valid points, and I'd like to point a few things out: "He didn't get a 250k salary, that was total compensation, largely RSUs on a standard vesting schedule." Yes, and he purposefully chose (as he describes) the more "illiquid" of two offers. "He also donates 1/3rd of his pre-tax income to charity." Admirable and very commendable (I can't stress how much I really respect this about him), but irrelevant. "If you spend 15 minutes talking to him, he'll leave an impression." -- the definition of "charisma"
Apocryphon 10y ago
Sounds like less of an indictment of him, and more of an indictment of the software interview process in SV and shark-feeding nature of the bubble.
- Hydraulix989 10y ago
  Yes, I am less interested in the details of his specific case (I realize I might have made some rash judgments earlier on), and more interested in furthering the discussion behind the general trends underlying the Valley's hiring processes and brainstorming ways to possibly even improve them.

HiFaraz 10y ago

FYI, he's actually quite technically talented. Let's assume less and RTFA more. http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii/ http://haseebq.com/farewell-app-academy-hello-airbnb-part-ii... Excerpt: ... many people are drawing the conclusion that I primarily got a job at Airbnb by being really good at negotiating, or gaming the system, or something like that. If you have ever done a software engineering interview, you would know that this is completely absurd. There is no way to negotiate or charm someone into passing a software engineering interview. Much less 8 of them. If you don’t know the ins and outs of object-oriented programming, database design, asymptotic analysis, binary search trees, or how to improve the cache efficiency of an algorithm, then you’re not going to pass a computer science-heavy interview at a top company. You don’t even have a shot at it. The moral of my story is not “get really good at negotiating and you’ll get a great job.” Negotiating is important, and I certainly encourage everyone to negotiate! But first, get good at the thing you’re doing. Then worry about negotiating. I moved to San Francisco from Austin, Texas about a year ago because I decided I was going to earn-to-give. Since then I’ve been relentlessly trying to build a new career for myself, so I could earn more and donate more to charity. Entering into App Academy, barely knowing the basics of Ruby, I came into the office and grinded every day, spending 80+ hour weeks just coding and studying. I’d come in at 9AM in the morning and leave around midnight, 7 days a week, sleeping in a bunk bed in SOMA in a 200 square feet shared room. It’s certainly true that I probably have a mind that’s well-suited for coding. But it’s also true that I outworked almost everyone who was in my cohort. And when I was hired by App Academy to help teach the course, I continued working as hard as I could to get good at this. I still stayed late in the evenings, I still came into the office on weekends alongside the students just to continue coding and learning more. I started an algorithms study group in the evenings where I taught students new algorithms that I had read about, and wrote specs and instructions to guide them through the implementation. I took over our entire algorithms curriculum and taught well over 100 students the basics of data structures and algorithms. And of course, I was scared that none of this would matter. That having been an English major, having a non-traditional background, being 26 and too old to transition into tech, competing against 20 year olds who’d been coding since they were 10, I thought I must have no chance. Thankfully, I was wrong. And I’m very, very lucky that I was wrong, because I was almost right.

10y ago

cloudjacker 10y ago

lol would it make you feel better to learn that 1/3rd of that salary is RSUs? Or will it make you feel worse to feel that he was denied the position at AirBnB but made some phone calls? Its cool, learn how to play your cards, and this guy already had a track record of successfully doing that

mccolin 10y ago

The article contains excellent negotiation advice and its cornerstone element is honesty. Regardless of the author's history, this advice is solid.

akhilcacharya 10y ago

>I know people personally that worked their asses off learning systems programming, algorithms, and advanced mathematics at top-tier four-year colleges with absolutely fantastic technical CVs that got offers that aren't even half of that. Hold up, by this logic does this mean that people who don't have these things (no advanced math, no top-tier 4 year school) should receive salaries that are even less than half of that?

Hydraulix989 10y ago
No, that's the logical fallacy of "denying the antecedent."