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> Direct democracy's historical performance in this respect is abysmal Is that true? It certainly has its critics, but in classical Greece it more than held it

> Direct democracy's historical performance in this respect is abysmal Is that true? It certainly has its critics, but in classical Greece it more than held its own in a highly competitive ecosystem for ~180 years. I'm sure at least that we need more experiments with different institutions.

riffraff 10y ago
180 years is not much, other kind of republics fared better (the roman republic lasted 500 years, and the venetian republic more than 1000). Also, the direct democracy in, e.g. Athens actually encompassed a very limited number of people (adult males owners of land) so it's not 100% comparable with a modern version. I do agree we should try more things though.
- abecedarius 10y ago
  Owning land was not required. In Pericles's time they did add a requirement that both parents be Athenians, not just the father. I agree that the details and context matter, and there are a lot of details beyond "all the citizens can vote". (Here are some that HN readers ought to find cool: http://www.alamut.com/subj/artiface/deadMedia/agoraMuseum.html http://www.alamut.com/subj/artiface/deadMedia/agoraMuseum.ht...)
jacques_chester 10y ago
Classical Greece was a cultural diaspora of politically distinct city-states, which experienced very turbulent politics, swinging between systems of oligarchy, tyranny and democracy. In fact, the Greek example that is often pointed to as an example of how not to do it. Even by the Greeks, who watched the dynamics up close. See, for example, Plato's fondness for tyranny of him and his buddies over democracy.
- abecedarius 10y ago
  The Greeks had turbulent politics both before and after the democratic period. I'm kind of impressed by the resilience of Athenian democracy. Plato's a great example of how much better antidemocratic views seem to have survived subsequent transmission. Whenever we read historical judgments instead of facts we need to keep in mind we're seeing what managed to keep getting copied over almost two millennia until the printing press, almost all of the time under ideologies where the prince's word was law.
TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
Classical Greece is arguably a poor example for reasons outlined elsewhere in this thread. My argument against is this: professional politicians and bureaucrats often have a hard time governing a nation, what makes anyone believe the aggregate decisions of the crowd would do any better. Admittedly it'd often be hard to do any worse, but make no mistake we are as, and probably more so, fallible and as easily influenced as any politian. At least with representative democracy we, the crowd, have someone to blame / prosecute / shame / hang. And we probably secretively want that. I guess I just don't believe that salvation from our own follies can be found in one political system or another. Politics is a shitty abstraction built on top of shitty people like me, what with my unconscious biases, prejudices, and personal preferences. I don't know what's best for other people, he'll I don't even know what's best for me. I mean, I have trouble deciding what to have for dinner let alone what is good economic or environmental policy for the next x period of time.

riffraff 10y ago

180 years is not much, other kind of republics fared better (the roman republic lasted 500 years, and the venetian republic more than 1000). Also, the direct democracy in, e.g. Athens actually encompassed a very limited number of people (adult males owners of land) so it's not 100% comparable with a modern version. I do agree we should try more things though.

abecedarius 10y ago
Owning land was not required. In Pericles's time they did add a requirement that both parents be Athenians, not just the father. I agree that the details and context matter, and there are a lot of details beyond "all the citizens can vote". (Here are some that HN readers ought to find cool: http://www.alamut.com/subj/artiface/deadMedia/agoraMuseum.html http://www.alamut.com/subj/artiface/deadMedia/agoraMuseum.ht...)

jacques_chester 10y ago

Classical Greece was a cultural diaspora of politically distinct city-states, which experienced very turbulent politics, swinging between systems of oligarchy, tyranny and democracy. In fact, the Greek example that is often pointed to as an example of how not to do it. Even by the Greeks, who watched the dynamics up close. See, for example, Plato's fondness for tyranny of him and his buddies over democracy.

abecedarius 10y ago
The Greeks had turbulent politics both before and after the democratic period. I'm kind of impressed by the resilience of Athenian democracy. Plato's a great example of how much better antidemocratic views seem to have survived subsequent transmission. Whenever we read historical judgments instead of facts we need to keep in mind we're seeing what managed to keep getting copied over almost two millennia until the printing press, almost all of the time under ideologies where the prince's word was law.

TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago

Classical Greece is arguably a poor example for reasons outlined elsewhere in this thread. My argument against is this: professional politicians and bureaucrats often have a hard time governing a nation, what makes anyone believe the aggregate decisions of the crowd would do any better. Admittedly it'd often be hard to do any worse, but make no mistake we are as, and probably more so, fallible and as easily influenced as any politian. At least with representative democracy we, the crowd, have someone to blame / prosecute / shame / hang. And we probably secretively want that. I guess I just don't believe that salvation from our own follies can be found in one political system or another. Politics is a shitty abstraction built on top of shitty people like me, what with my unconscious biases, prejudices, and personal preferences. I don't know what's best for other people, he'll I don't even know what's best for me. I mean, I have trouble deciding what to have for dinner let alone what is good economic or environmental policy for the next x period of time.