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> That does not explain why we have to resort to state intervention. Having a country where people fall, through no fault of their own (unless you count their

> That does not explain why we have to resort to state intervention. Having a country where people fall, through no fault of their own (unless you count their genetics), to such an extent that they live in tents and sewers is enough indication that there's inadequate state protection.

aminok 10y ago
Having a country where people are thrown in prison for refusing to help other people who, through no fault of the imprisoned individual's own, are in unfortunate circumstances, is a basic indication of authoritarianism. Like something the Sparrows in GoT would justify.
- chillwaves 10y ago
  That's every society that has taxes and social programs, which is what.. every society? Sounds like you are not happy with the compromise democracy has to offer. Not sure what to tell you, but if most people want BI then it would be authoritarian to not give it to them in a democracy.
  - aminok 10y ago
    Authoritarianism is authoritarianism, no matter how many countries practice it. >but if most people want BI then it would be authoritarian to not give it to them in a democracy. That's not how authoritarian is defined. The majority have no right to violate the right of the minority. More to the point, I'm arguing that we should try to change the minds of the majority, because the majority held viewpoint is authoritarian.
    - chillwaves 10y ago
      I don't know what authoritarian means in this context. My understanding is the government has a monopoly on violence, and when I disobey laws that other people pass (through the process of democracy), I will be on the receiving end of government violence. What you call authoritarian is to me what folks call democracy. I also don't understand the distinction for private trade, in that without a functioning government to support a marketplace, such trade would not exist.
      - aminok 10y ago
        Democracy is how we determine what laws to pass. Universal rights are how we determine if a law is just. Just as we have a universal right to not be enslaved, we have a universal right to not have our private property and privacy violated, and an income or sales tax does both. >I also don't understand the distinction for private trade, in that without a functioning government to support a marketplace, such trade would not exist. Private trade refers to trade amongst exclusively private entities, as opposed to trade amongst several entities, one or more of which are public (government). Your speculation that private trade wouldn't exist without services rendered by government, even if it were accurate, would not disqualify trade amongst private parties as private.
- anexprogrammer 10y ago
  Are you proposing there be no taxes at all? How do you pay for military, police, courts and all other aspects of a developed state? If taxes are ok to pay for those, why not a UBI that tries to improve on what's currently done? It won't be perfect, nothing human is.

aminok 10y ago

Having a country where people are thrown in prison for refusing to help other people who, through no fault of the imprisoned individual's own, are in unfortunate circumstances, is a basic indication of authoritarianism. Like something the Sparrows in GoT would justify.

chillwaves 10y ago
That's every society that has taxes and social programs, which is what.. every society? Sounds like you are not happy with the compromise democracy has to offer. Not sure what to tell you, but if most people want BI then it would be authoritarian to not give it to them in a democracy.
- aminok 10y ago
  Authoritarianism is authoritarianism, no matter how many countries practice it. >but if most people want BI then it would be authoritarian to not give it to them in a democracy. That's not how authoritarian is defined. The majority have no right to violate the right of the minority. More to the point, I'm arguing that we should try to change the minds of the majority, because the majority held viewpoint is authoritarian.
  - chillwaves 10y ago
    I don't know what authoritarian means in this context. My understanding is the government has a monopoly on violence, and when I disobey laws that other people pass (through the process of democracy), I will be on the receiving end of government violence. What you call authoritarian is to me what folks call democracy. I also don't understand the distinction for private trade, in that without a functioning government to support a marketplace, such trade would not exist.
    - aminok 10y ago
      Democracy is how we determine what laws to pass. Universal rights are how we determine if a law is just. Just as we have a universal right to not be enslaved, we have a universal right to not have our private property and privacy violated, and an income or sales tax does both. >I also don't understand the distinction for private trade, in that without a functioning government to support a marketplace, such trade would not exist. Private trade refers to trade amongst exclusively private entities, as opposed to trade amongst several entities, one or more of which are public (government). Your speculation that private trade wouldn't exist without services rendered by government, even if it were accurate, would not disqualify trade amongst private parties as private.
anexprogrammer 10y ago
Are you proposing there be no taxes at all? How do you pay for military, police, courts and all other aspects of a developed state? If taxes are ok to pay for those, why not a UBI that tries to improve on what's currently done? It won't be perfect, nothing human is.