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I think we should try to first make popular scouting organizations for children who are diverse, inclusive, and welcoming. The Boy Scouts of America currently

I think we should try to first make popular scouting organizations for children who are diverse, inclusive, and welcoming. The Boy Scouts of America currently can't be supported by me no matter their merits because of their stances on gays and the non-religious. I also don't support sex segregation in scouting. Keep the BSofA for the people who want that sort of thing but let's support inclusive scouting organizations as well.

GFischer 10y ago
Some people inside BSofA are trying to change that (I know one of them). Hopefully they'll prevail.
donw 10y ago
Agreed. Lord Baden-Powell would be very disappointed at the Boy Scouts as it exists today. But I do seem to meet a large number of young adults that could benefit from a similar experience to Scouting, in terms of learning valuable life skills, building self-confidence, and as a way of broadening their experience outside of urban life.
- ptomato 10y ago
  > Lord Baden-Powell would be very disappointed at the Boy Scouts as it exists today. Lord Baden-Powell as he was or a hypothetical version of him with modern morality applied? "No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have a religion....Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and Serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour." - from Scouting for Boys. And, generally, he seemed to consider that pretty important.
  - xorcist 10y ago
    Scouting for Boys is basically what he started out with. He then lived on to nurture the organization into something else. Other life outlooks than his own, including atheism, was never really problematic. Otherwise it wouldn't have spread to muslims, jews, atheists and so on. All of this matters very little however, as Baden-Powell's ideas aren't gospel. The organization doesn't exist to teach hundred year old ideas about how boys should behave. (It's important to know that the national organizations have a lot of leeway in shaping their own program and the BSA is unique in a number of ways.)
    - ptomato 10y ago
      > Baden-Powell's ideas aren't gospel I'm not making any argument about what the Boy Scouts should or shouldn't do, but rather responding to the statement that Lord Baden-Powell would be disappointed by it or parts of it rejecting atheists, which is clearly false.
tych0 10y ago
The national organization lifted its ban on openly gay leaders about a year ago. I am an Eagle scout who was openly an atheist while going through the program. A lot of this depends on your local leadership; the national organization stays out of it. The program is a great program as noted above, for all its flaws. If you have a child interested, you can have a huge effect on the local program simply by becoming involved.
- hobs 10y ago
  I was politely asked to leave my local group under similar conditions (non-belief causing friction), though I was only a webelo at the time. I would probably feel out the group first if you intend to do this, it wasn't a pleasant experience at the time.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  > If you have a child interested, you can have a huge effect on the local program simply by becoming involved Sorry but joining an organization that is openly exclusive to you and your values then trying to change it to be inclusive to you and change their core values seems very wrong. Having your child being an unwelcome outsider during your personal crusade. why not join, create, and support alternative scouting organizations that welcome you and your values?
  - matthewaveryusa 10y ago
    Either approach is valid. Not everything is political. On paper the bsa may seem bad but in person you may realize your local troop only really cares about the outdoors aspect. I was in the bsa and it was just a bunch of kids doing kids stuff in the woods. homosexual and religious agendas were so foreign I never knew it was an issue until I read about it in college.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      Even if your local troop doesn't enforce the official BSA policies... There are alternative scouting organizations that have different official policies. Why support one over the other if the other exists? Support alternative scouting organizations is all I am saying.
unethical_ban 10y ago
>Keep the BSofA for the people who want that sort of thing Things like >Selecting a campsite, leaving no trace when you leave, water purification and management, building and containing campfires, land navigation with a map and compass, how to safely use a rifle, knife use and maintenance, first aid... I learned all of these as a kid. I suppose.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  ...and “no boy can grow into the best kind of citizenship without recognizing his obligation to God.” Sorry, this goes against my core beliefs and I couldn't perosnally support or send a child to such an organization no matter what their other merits may be. http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/11/02/beginning-next-year-boy-scouts-will-discuss-duty-to-god-at-each-rank/ http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/11/02/beginning-next-y...
  - cbHXBY1D 10y ago
    It really does depend on the troop. I was a boy scout in the Bay Area and we had openly gay scouts and almost all of the kids and parents were atheist.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      Even if your local troop didn't follow the original policies and mission statement of the organization doesn't mean they don't exist. I don't want to support the organization even if a rogue troop doesn't follow the official mission statement. From my link above: >What’s new is that beginning Jan. 1, 2016, every rank from Tenderfoot to Eagle Scout (plus Eagle Scout palms) will include a “duty to God” requirement
      - SiVal 10y ago
        I'm an atheist, and scouts made a wonderful contribution to my life. I put my atheist kids into it, and they had a great time, too. It's a wonderful organization and great troops are the norm, not "rogue". I don't know if there were any gay kids among these pre-teens, and I didn't notice anyone who ever seemed to care. I've worked with Mormons on community service events: some of the finest people I've ever known. I don't believe in their God, but I believe in them and have no trouble getting along. I've been involved with sports in a Catholic organization. I've worked at companies that had some policies I disagreed with but that were a net positive in the world, in my opinion, and I hope I was a net positive for the company. I'm not aware of any perfect scouting-like groups nor of any imperfect ones that, all things included, would be better for my own boys than the scouting group across the street. I don't have to take umbrage at everything that has some relationship to something I don't agree with. I guess there is more that one kind of "inclusiveness".

GFischer 10y ago

Some people inside BSofA are trying to change that (I know one of them). Hopefully they'll prevail.

donw 10y ago

Agreed. Lord Baden-Powell would be very disappointed at the Boy Scouts as it exists today. But I do seem to meet a large number of young adults that could benefit from a similar experience to Scouting, in terms of learning valuable life skills, building self-confidence, and as a way of broadening their experience outside of urban life.

ptomato 10y ago
> Lord Baden-Powell would be very disappointed at the Boy Scouts as it exists today. Lord Baden-Powell as he was or a hypothetical version of him with modern morality applied? "No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have a religion....Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and Serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour." - from Scouting for Boys. And, generally, he seemed to consider that pretty important.
- xorcist 10y ago
  Scouting for Boys is basically what he started out with. He then lived on to nurture the organization into something else. Other life outlooks than his own, including atheism, was never really problematic. Otherwise it wouldn't have spread to muslims, jews, atheists and so on. All of this matters very little however, as Baden-Powell's ideas aren't gospel. The organization doesn't exist to teach hundred year old ideas about how boys should behave. (It's important to know that the national organizations have a lot of leeway in shaping their own program and the BSA is unique in a number of ways.)
  - ptomato 10y ago
    > Baden-Powell's ideas aren't gospel I'm not making any argument about what the Boy Scouts should or shouldn't do, but rather responding to the statement that Lord Baden-Powell would be disappointed by it or parts of it rejecting atheists, which is clearly false.

tych0 10y ago

The national organization lifted its ban on openly gay leaders about a year ago. I am an Eagle scout who was openly an atheist while going through the program. A lot of this depends on your local leadership; the national organization stays out of it. The program is a great program as noted above, for all its flaws. If you have a child interested, you can have a huge effect on the local program simply by becoming involved.

hobs 10y ago
I was politely asked to leave my local group under similar conditions (non-belief causing friction), though I was only a webelo at the time. I would probably feel out the group first if you intend to do this, it wasn't a pleasant experience at the time.
nommm-nommm 10y ago
> If you have a child interested, you can have a huge effect on the local program simply by becoming involved Sorry but joining an organization that is openly exclusive to you and your values then trying to change it to be inclusive to you and change their core values seems very wrong. Having your child being an unwelcome outsider during your personal crusade. why not join, create, and support alternative scouting organizations that welcome you and your values?
- matthewaveryusa 10y ago
  Either approach is valid. Not everything is political. On paper the bsa may seem bad but in person you may realize your local troop only really cares about the outdoors aspect. I was in the bsa and it was just a bunch of kids doing kids stuff in the woods. homosexual and religious agendas were so foreign I never knew it was an issue until I read about it in college.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Even if your local troop doesn't enforce the official BSA policies... There are alternative scouting organizations that have different official policies. Why support one over the other if the other exists? Support alternative scouting organizations is all I am saying.

unethical_ban 10y ago

>Keep the BSofA for the people who want that sort of thing Things like >Selecting a campsite, leaving no trace when you leave, water purification and management, building and containing campfires, land navigation with a map and compass, how to safely use a rifle, knife use and maintenance, first aid... I learned all of these as a kid. I suppose.

nommm-nommm 10y ago
...and “no boy can grow into the best kind of citizenship without recognizing his obligation to God.” Sorry, this goes against my core beliefs and I couldn't perosnally support or send a child to such an organization no matter what their other merits may be. http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/11/02/beginning-next-year-boy-scouts-will-discuss-duty-to-god-at-each-rank/ http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/11/02/beginning-next-y...
- cbHXBY1D 10y ago
  It really does depend on the troop. I was a boy scout in the Bay Area and we had openly gay scouts and almost all of the kids and parents were atheist.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Even if your local troop didn't follow the original policies and mission statement of the organization doesn't mean they don't exist. I don't want to support the organization even if a rogue troop doesn't follow the official mission statement. From my link above: >What’s new is that beginning Jan. 1, 2016, every rank from Tenderfoot to Eagle Scout (plus Eagle Scout palms) will include a “duty to God” requirement
    - SiVal 10y ago
      I'm an atheist, and scouts made a wonderful contribution to my life. I put my atheist kids into it, and they had a great time, too. It's a wonderful organization and great troops are the norm, not "rogue". I don't know if there were any gay kids among these pre-teens, and I didn't notice anyone who ever seemed to care. I've worked with Mormons on community service events: some of the finest people I've ever known. I don't believe in their God, but I believe in them and have no trouble getting along. I've been involved with sports in a Catholic organization. I've worked at companies that had some policies I disagreed with but that were a net positive in the world, in my opinion, and I hope I was a net positive for the company. I'm not aware of any perfect scouting-like groups nor of any imperfect ones that, all things included, would be better for my own boys than the scouting group across the street. I don't have to take umbrage at everything that has some relationship to something I don't agree with. I guess there is more that one kind of "inclusiveness".