5 ms·

It's surprising that people would criticise those who jumped. Wow. A focus on the idealised view of the jumper ("they would never have killed themselves!") blo

It's surprising that people would criticise those who jumped. Wow. A focus on the idealised view of the jumper ("they would never have killed themselves!") blocks people from feeling the sheer terror and pain the jumper must have felt. The focus on some abstract concept like "suicide is bad, m'kay" rather than right-here-and-now burning flames and the terrifying strangle of unbreathable smoke. The fact that so many jumped despite all our fears of heights and certain death, is proof of a greater horror in those floors. Society skews our perspective so we focus on the trivial, punishing those whose family members were lost, rather than learning something about the situation those poor people must have been in and empathising with their families.

rawfan 10y ago
My little brother is a fire fighter. He tells me it's involuntary. At a certain point the heat and smoke get so intense that you can't do anything but jump. He's seen his trained collegues do it.
- truth_sentinell 10y ago
  I wonder why most business buildings don't have some sort of mechanism on the outside that allows people to climb off? That would have save many many lives.
  - refurb 10y ago
    You mean a fire escape? Most buildings do, but some are internal. Nothing like that would have helped in the wtc.
    - celticninja 10y ago
      Parachutes next to a window with a hammer. Would have helped some, but of course you could not store enough for everyone. And whilst training may usually be necessary, shoulder and leg straps aren't that hard to work out and a bright coloured mini chute thrown to engage the main chute would be feasible. And of course the perils of crashing into the building etc are still there but for the sort of situations we are talking about you would be almost certainly dead if yiu didn't jump.
      - gbajson 10y ago
        Good luck. BASE jump without many, many practice parachute jumps before means almost sure dead. Also, parachutes need to folded and unfolded from time time.
        celticninja 10y ago
        As I said these are for the situation where you are dead if you don't.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=skyscraper+evacuation+systems&t=ftas&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=skyscraper+evacuation+systems&t=ft... https://www.technologyreview.com/s/425276/the-best-way-to-evacuate-a-skyscraper/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/425276/the-best-way-to-ev... https://www.chamberofcommerce.com/herndon-va/33439780-skyscraper-evacuation-systems-inc https://www.chamberofcommerce.com/herndon-va/33439780-skyscr... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_evacuation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_evacuation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_escape https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_escape https://sourceable.net/tablet/single/?name=high-rise-fires-rethinking-exit-strategies https://sourceable.net/tablet/single/?name=high-rise-fires-r... http://emergency.cornell.edu/building-evacuation/ http://emergency.cornell.edu/building-evacuation/ In short: there are systems, and they work, to varying extents, for existing structures. Very tall supertowers are a particular challenge, as every internal safety system competes for space with other interior uses, and external evacuation systems are difficult to specify and design. Many possible systems would have been compromised, internally or externally, on the twin towers, from the same extraordinary threats as were compromising the structure itself: gross physical damge to the structure, which closed off internal stairwells, and a raging, jet-fuel-fed inferno, which was weakening steel structural beams, and which would have compromised numerous possible esternal escape structures based on natural or synthetic fiber rope or tube systems. Aerial evacuation was similarly hampered both by smoke and by lack of rooftop access (doors to the WTC roofs were locked against internal use). The most effective protection was simply not to be in the towers when they fell. The decision of some survivors to leave WTC1 after witnessing WTC2's strike was key, and the in-building announcements to not evacuate contributed directly to the death toll. The inhabitants of WTC2 above the impact zone were doomed in all but the most optimistic scenarios, which is troubling -- the situation bears some resemblance to the disaster on the RMS Titanic in 1914, for which I strongly recommend the 1954 film A Night to Remember. It's worth remembering that the daytime occupancy of the WTC complex could exceed 50,000, and estimates are that 17,400 people were in the towers at the time of the attacks. Over 84% of the occupants managed to escape successfully (the death total of 2,753 includes both the hijackers themselves and occupants of the two flights which struck the towers). That's a grim success under the circumstances.
    - truth_sentinell 10y ago
protomyth 10y ago
I too find the criticism strange. At that point, you basically get to pick from being burned alive or hitting the pavement with the third option being burned and falling off the building anyway being the likely outcome. You might be that one in a million that survives the fall, its happened before. Heck, given rawfan's comment[1], they might not have had a choice anyway. Its not suicide. They didn't want to die that day. Its choosing which way you are going to be murdered. 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12473220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12473220
smsm42 10y ago
I don't claim to be able to understand the pain of people who lost a family member, but I think the response may have to do with cultural programming where the suicide is always bad, no matter what. That makes person who committed it bad too, and nobody wants the last action of a beloved person to be that they become bad. I think in this regard, as in many other things that seemed good idea, US culture goes overboard and pushes too hard, adding to the suffering of the surviving family instead of easing it. I think it's different in cultures where suicide is an acceptable (and sometimes even lauded) action in some circumstances.
- richardw 10y ago
  I agree that it's cultural programming, but it seems to focus on one aspect (suicide) far too much where in other contexts killing yourself is fine. Soldier jumping on a grenade to save buddies: fine. Here the 'suicide' is accepted because there's a greater principle. But the greater threat in a burning building is all the pain before certain death, rather than no pain before certain death. I don't even consider it suicide, just the only option to escape the pain that happens to also end in death.

rawfan 10y ago

My little brother is a fire fighter. He tells me it's involuntary. At a certain point the heat and smoke get so intense that you can't do anything but jump. He's seen his trained collegues do it.

truth_sentinell 10y ago
I wonder why most business buildings don't have some sort of mechanism on the outside that allows people to climb off? That would have save many many lives.
- refurb 10y ago
  You mean a fire escape? Most buildings do, but some are internal. Nothing like that would have helped in the wtc.
  - celticninja 10y ago
    Parachutes next to a window with a hammer. Would have helped some, but of course you could not store enough for everyone. And whilst training may usually be necessary, shoulder and leg straps aren't that hard to work out and a bright coloured mini chute thrown to engage the main chute would be feasible. And of course the perils of crashing into the building etc are still there but for the sort of situations we are talking about you would be almost certainly dead if yiu didn't jump.
    - gbajson 10y ago
      Good luck. BASE jump without many, many practice parachute jumps before means almost sure dead. Also, parachutes need to folded and unfolded from time time.
      - celticninja 10y ago
        As I said these are for the situation where you are dead if you don't.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  https://duckduckgo.com/?q=skyscraper+evacuation+systems&t=ftas&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=skyscraper+evacuation+systems&t=ft... https://www.technologyreview.com/s/425276/the-best-way-to-evacuate-a-skyscraper/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/425276/the-best-way-to-ev... https://www.chamberofcommerce.com/herndon-va/33439780-skyscraper-evacuation-systems-inc https://www.chamberofcommerce.com/herndon-va/33439780-skyscr... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_evacuation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_evacuation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_escape https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_escape https://sourceable.net/tablet/single/?name=high-rise-fires-rethinking-exit-strategies https://sourceable.net/tablet/single/?name=high-rise-fires-r... http://emergency.cornell.edu/building-evacuation/ http://emergency.cornell.edu/building-evacuation/ In short: there are systems, and they work, to varying extents, for existing structures. Very tall supertowers are a particular challenge, as every internal safety system competes for space with other interior uses, and external evacuation systems are difficult to specify and design. Many possible systems would have been compromised, internally or externally, on the twin towers, from the same extraordinary threats as were compromising the structure itself: gross physical damge to the structure, which closed off internal stairwells, and a raging, jet-fuel-fed inferno, which was weakening steel structural beams, and which would have compromised numerous possible esternal escape structures based on natural or synthetic fiber rope or tube systems. Aerial evacuation was similarly hampered both by smoke and by lack of rooftop access (doors to the WTC roofs were locked against internal use). The most effective protection was simply not to be in the towers when they fell. The decision of some survivors to leave WTC1 after witnessing WTC2's strike was key, and the in-building announcements to not evacuate contributed directly to the death toll. The inhabitants of WTC2 above the impact zone were doomed in all but the most optimistic scenarios, which is troubling -- the situation bears some resemblance to the disaster on the RMS Titanic in 1914, for which I strongly recommend the 1954 film A Night to Remember. It's worth remembering that the daytime occupancy of the WTC complex could exceed 50,000, and estimates are that 17,400 people were in the towers at the time of the attacks. Over 84% of the occupants managed to escape successfully (the death total of 2,753 includes both the hijackers themselves and occupants of the two flights which struck the towers). That's a grim success under the circumstances.
  - truth_sentinell 10y ago

protomyth 10y ago

I too find the criticism strange. At that point, you basically get to pick from being burned alive or hitting the pavement with the third option being burned and falling off the building anyway being the likely outcome. You might be that one in a million that survives the fall, its happened before. Heck, given rawfan's comment[1], they might not have had a choice anyway. Its not suicide. They didn't want to die that day. Its choosing which way you are going to be murdered. 1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12473220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12473220

smsm42 10y ago

I don't claim to be able to understand the pain of people who lost a family member, but I think the response may have to do with cultural programming where the suicide is always bad, no matter what. That makes person who committed it bad too, and nobody wants the last action of a beloved person to be that they become bad. I think in this regard, as in many other things that seemed good idea, US culture goes overboard and pushes too hard, adding to the suffering of the surviving family instead of easing it. I think it's different in cultures where suicide is an acceptable (and sometimes even lauded) action in some circumstances.

richardw 10y ago
I agree that it's cultural programming, but it seems to focus on one aspect (suicide) far too much where in other contexts killing yourself is fine. Soldier jumping on a grenade to save buddies: fine. Here the 'suicide' is accepted because there's a greater principle. But the greater threat in a burning building is all the pain before certain death, rather than no pain before certain death. I don't even consider it suicide, just the only option to escape the pain that happens to also end in death.