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It doesn't really though. You have no choice on whether to participate in the market economy, and forming labor unions is restricted. Compared to other develope

It doesn't really though. You have no choice on whether to participate in the market economy, and forming labor unions is restricted. Compared to other developed countries, work hours are long, minimum wage low and holidays short. If you don't work, even if the only work available is horrible and degrading, society thinks it's okay to deny you healthcare and starve you to death. This isn't a necessity, but a moral norm we have, that people who don't work should be punished, by death if necessary. It's interesting that so many pro-market people claim to be individualists, because the view that the market should dictate everyone's life is as collectivist as it gets.

jomamaxx 10y ago
"society thinks it's okay to deny you healthcare and starve you to death" This makes no sense. Society does not 'deny' you almost anything. That someone cannot or choses not to buy something is not 'denial'. "because the view that the market should dictate " ???? The market does not dictate anything. The 'market' is just the sum totality of 'individual choices'.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  It was wonderful living in a certain world, once.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  I'm not making a moral or ideological statement, in fact, I'm trying to pull the ideology out of it.
mountaineer22 10y ago
What country do you live in?
fennecfoxen 10y ago
> You have no choice on whether to participate in the market economy > society thinks it's okay to deny you healthcare and starve you to death. You seem to be saying that it's a problem if society makes you participate in the free market, but it's not a problem when you have to participate in an unfree market instead of a free market. (And of course it's worth mentioning that even the USA, capitalist enemy #1, has Medicare and doesn't let people starve.) > the view that the market should dictate everyone's life is as collectivist as it gets. Well, your life is either going to be defined by a system where people trade goods and services in an ad hoc manner uncontrolled by a government, or in a planned manner explicitly controlled by a government (possibly in negotiation with a strong labor union). One of these is more individualistic. It's not the one where people work real hard to get a job (one of the few), keep the same job for all 40 years of their working life, aggressively lobby against people choosing to pay custom to the disruptive competition which employs immigrants (and protest it by burning tires in the streets), et cetera. We could argue many things saying that system is superior but individualism isn't one of them.

jomamaxx 10y ago

"society thinks it's okay to deny you healthcare and starve you to death" This makes no sense. Society does not 'deny' you almost anything. That someone cannot or choses not to buy something is not 'denial'. "because the view that the market should dictate " ???? The market does not dictate anything. The 'market' is just the sum totality of 'individual choices'.

dredmorbius 10y ago
It was wonderful living in a certain world, once.
jomamaxx 10y ago
I'm not making a moral or ideological statement, in fact, I'm trying to pull the ideology out of it.

mountaineer22 10y ago

What country do you live in?

fennecfoxen 10y ago

> You have no choice on whether to participate in the market economy > society thinks it's okay to deny you healthcare and starve you to death. You seem to be saying that it's a problem if society makes you participate in the free market, but it's not a problem when you have to participate in an unfree market instead of a free market. (And of course it's worth mentioning that even the USA, capitalist enemy #1, has Medicare and doesn't let people starve.) > the view that the market should dictate everyone's life is as collectivist as it gets. Well, your life is either going to be defined by a system where people trade goods and services in an ad hoc manner uncontrolled by a government, or in a planned manner explicitly controlled by a government (possibly in negotiation with a strong labor union). One of these is more individualistic. It's not the one where people work real hard to get a job (one of the few), keep the same job for all 40 years of their working life, aggressively lobby against people choosing to pay custom to the disruptive competition which employs immigrants (and protest it by burning tires in the streets), et cetera. We could argue many things saying that system is superior but individualism isn't one of them.