5 ms·

I can think of three high school classes that were great because of the teachers (an English class, a geometry class, and a shop class), and maybe three that we

I can think of three high school classes that were great because of the teachers (an English class, a geometry class, and a shop class), and maybe three that were great because of their self-learning nature (my first programming class, an engineering class, and an after-school electronics+engineering class taught by the shop teacher). For everything else, I've got to agree. Take my US History class. I think it's important to know the events that shaped our culture, know roughly the order they came in, and about when they happened and why. The name and date of a 19th century law involving share croppers? Sure, I'll be able to write an essay on it for the test, because I know that's the requirement, but ask me 6 months later, and I won't be able to tell you much about it.

bitwize 10y ago
"Sure, I'll be able to write an essay on it for the test, because I know that's the requirement, but ask me 6 months later, and I won't be able to tell you much about it." Here's a secret: That's the point of the class. School is mainly there to teach you to take assignments, follow directions, and cough up results on demand, irrespective of whether you actually care about the subject. It's a much-in-demand business skill.
- bsder 10y ago
  > Here's a secret: That's the point of the class. School is mainly there to teach you to take assignments, follow directions, and cough up results on demand, irrespective of whether you actually care about the subject. It's a much-in-demand business skill. I get tired of people dumping on schools. The problem with school is that most of the consumers of said education are unmotivated slackers whom you practically have to beat the information into. There are many reasons for people to not like school (social aspects--both personal and community--certainly being a big problem), but, I have ZERO sympathy for anyone who complains that it was boring, uninteresting drudgery from an educational standpoint. Yes, everybody has bumped into the teacher that is retired-in-place--these people exist in any long-lived institution including companies. But, dear God, most teachers are desperate for any student to show even a modicum of interest in what they are teaching. Even in the worst schools, there always seems to be a handful of teachers lighting the way. If you found your education boring, it's because you didn't exert even the minimum amount of effort necessary to get the attention of those teachers. And that's your own damn fault.
  - TillE 10y ago
    Even assuming that bad teachers are the norm, there's always an interesting way to look at any subject. A curious mind will find those. Start by reading the textbook - again, some are awful, but most aren't.
  - catshirt 10y ago
    > "The problem with school is that most of the consumers of said education are unmotivated slackers whom you practically have to beat the information into." I almost stopped reading after that bit and I kind of wish I did. there is some, some truth to what you are saying. but to paint this picture that "the problem with school" is the students.... is disingenuous at best, completely ignorant at worst.
  - khedoros 10y ago
    > The problem with school is that most of the consumers of said education are unmotivated slackers whom you practically have to beat the information into. So, we agree there's a problem. It's immaterial if the issue is in the school itself or in the students. The material fact is that the tool you're using (the current educational system) isn't having the effect that you want (imparting useful information and useful ways to think about it). Say that I've got a polished, high-quality product, heavily advertised, easily available, and cheap. But: sales numbers are terrible. Is it the potential customers that are the problem, or is it something about the product? Put another way, is it more useful to fight against the nature of the customers, or to modify the product into something that will convince them to buy and use it? If most people are unmotivated, I don't think it's reasonable or constructive to just say "all well, they should've just tried harder". I think it's more useful to assume that they aren't inherently slackers and diagnose and fix the problems in the system to improve the experience for the students and the outcome for society, overall.
    - bsder 10y ago
      > It's immaterial if the issue is in the school itself or in the students. Um, that is, in fact, kind of a VERY big deal. If the problem is the students, your solutions are mostly about fixing things outside the school. > The material fact is that the tool you're using (the current educational system) isn't having the effect that you want (imparting useful information and useful ways to think about it). I somewhat disagree with this. The system appears to be generating a certain average level of education. We would like the system to be generating a higher average level of education. No one has yet shown that there is a better way of doing this than the current system, sadly, without expending a lot more focused resource than people are politically willing to exert. > I think it's more useful to assume that they aren't inherently slackers and diagnose and fix the problems in the system to improve the experience for the students and the outcome for society, overall. The problem isn't that students don't want an education--the problem is that there is almost always something right now (sports, guys/girls, video games, Facebook/Snapchat/Line) that they want more. This is what a school is fighting against. Good luck.
- pjscott 10y ago
  That's a very comforting idea. There's a scarier idea: school is not there for anything. It's not meant to teach you to conform, or to avoid conformity, or to remember who Douglas McArthur was, or to make you forget; it's not meant for anything. It is not meant. You are incidental to all this, and so am I, and so is everybody else. There is no purpose. There is no goal.
- khedoros 10y ago
  Heh. Well, they failed at teaching that, then. I've learned to quickly do the things that interest me and leave the rest languishing on a "to do" pile for as long as I can justify.

bitwize 10y ago

"Sure, I'll be able to write an essay on it for the test, because I know that's the requirement, but ask me 6 months later, and I won't be able to tell you much about it." Here's a secret: That's the point of the class. School is mainly there to teach you to take assignments, follow directions, and cough up results on demand, irrespective of whether you actually care about the subject. It's a much-in-demand business skill.

bsder 10y ago
> Here's a secret: That's the point of the class. School is mainly there to teach you to take assignments, follow directions, and cough up results on demand, irrespective of whether you actually care about the subject. It's a much-in-demand business skill. I get tired of people dumping on schools. The problem with school is that most of the consumers of said education are unmotivated slackers whom you practically have to beat the information into. There are many reasons for people to not like school (social aspects--both personal and community--certainly being a big problem), but, I have ZERO sympathy for anyone who complains that it was boring, uninteresting drudgery from an educational standpoint. Yes, everybody has bumped into the teacher that is retired-in-place--these people exist in any long-lived institution including companies. But, dear God, most teachers are desperate for any student to show even a modicum of interest in what they are teaching. Even in the worst schools, there always seems to be a handful of teachers lighting the way. If you found your education boring, it's because you didn't exert even the minimum amount of effort necessary to get the attention of those teachers. And that's your own damn fault.
- TillE 10y ago
  Even assuming that bad teachers are the norm, there's always an interesting way to look at any subject. A curious mind will find those. Start by reading the textbook - again, some are awful, but most aren't.
- catshirt 10y ago
  > "The problem with school is that most of the consumers of said education are unmotivated slackers whom you practically have to beat the information into." I almost stopped reading after that bit and I kind of wish I did. there is some, some truth to what you are saying. but to paint this picture that "the problem with school" is the students.... is disingenuous at best, completely ignorant at worst.
- khedoros 10y ago
  > The problem with school is that most of the consumers of said education are unmotivated slackers whom you practically have to beat the information into. So, we agree there's a problem. It's immaterial if the issue is in the school itself or in the students. The material fact is that the tool you're using (the current educational system) isn't having the effect that you want (imparting useful information and useful ways to think about it). Say that I've got a polished, high-quality product, heavily advertised, easily available, and cheap. But: sales numbers are terrible. Is it the potential customers that are the problem, or is it something about the product? Put another way, is it more useful to fight against the nature of the customers, or to modify the product into something that will convince them to buy and use it? If most people are unmotivated, I don't think it's reasonable or constructive to just say "all well, they should've just tried harder". I think it's more useful to assume that they aren't inherently slackers and diagnose and fix the problems in the system to improve the experience for the students and the outcome for society, overall.
  - bsder 10y ago
    > It's immaterial if the issue is in the school itself or in the students. Um, that is, in fact, kind of a VERY big deal. If the problem is the students, your solutions are mostly about fixing things outside the school. > The material fact is that the tool you're using (the current educational system) isn't having the effect that you want (imparting useful information and useful ways to think about it). I somewhat disagree with this. The system appears to be generating a certain average level of education. We would like the system to be generating a higher average level of education. No one has yet shown that there is a better way of doing this than the current system, sadly, without expending a lot more focused resource than people are politically willing to exert. > I think it's more useful to assume that they aren't inherently slackers and diagnose and fix the problems in the system to improve the experience for the students and the outcome for society, overall. The problem isn't that students don't want an education--the problem is that there is almost always something right now (sports, guys/girls, video games, Facebook/Snapchat/Line) that they want more. This is what a school is fighting against. Good luck.
pjscott 10y ago
That's a very comforting idea. There's a scarier idea: school is not there for anything. It's not meant to teach you to conform, or to avoid conformity, or to remember who Douglas McArthur was, or to make you forget; it's not meant for anything. It is not meant. You are incidental to all this, and so am I, and so is everybody else. There is no purpose. There is no goal.
khedoros 10y ago
Heh. Well, they failed at teaching that, then. I've learned to quickly do the things that interest me and leave the rest languishing on a "to do" pile for as long as I can justify.