4 ms·

> I've always accepted, perhaps naïvely, that something like the former is literally the price of avoiding the latter, and never regarded it as unethical. The

> I've always accepted, perhaps naïvely, that something like the former is literally the price of avoiding the latter, and never regarded it as unethical. The problem is not that you pay but HOW much you pay. An Open Access in ACM would cost $1700 for a journal and $900 for a conference article [0]. That cost is ridiculous to host online PDFs. [0] http://authors.acm.org/main.html http://authors.acm.org/main.html

JadeNB 10y ago
> That cost is ridiculous to host online PDFs. Agreed, but: without defending the pricing practices of journals (I don't know much about it, but assume that there's just as much predatory pricing in OA as, if not more than, in traditional journals), if that's all you want, then you can post your PDF on the arXiv for free. The journal purports to add some value—at the very least, it adds the prestige of being published in that journal, which I imagine for many of us is literally the only advantage over the arXiv.
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  > The journal purports to add some value—at the very least, it adds the prestige of being published in that journal, which I imagine for many of us is literally the only advantage over the arXiv. The journal in itself does not ANY value. The people who peer review the articles in journal do it at no cost. The articles are completely written by authors. The ONLY value that the journal adds is by hosting online PDFs.
  - gradstudent 10y ago
    > The journal in itself does not ANY value. The people who peer review the articles in journal do it at no cost. The articles are completely written by authors. The ONLY value that the journal adds is by hosting online PDFs. I suppose if you are not a practicing scientist the difference between a PDF hosted by a journal and a PDF on arXiv can seem irrelevant. It is not. Good journals have an effective peer review process that requires editors who will curate articles, match them with expert reviewers and subsequently provide their own meta review on the paper and the process. All of this is a valuable contribution that goes way beyond simply hosting a PDF. Even good work is genuinely improved by going through this process.
    - denzil_correa 10y ago
      > I suppose if you are not a practicing scientist I am. I'm reviewing 2 papers this moment. > Good journals have an effective peer review process that requires editors who will curate articles, match them with expert reviewers and subsequently provide their own meta review on the paper and the process. All of this is a valuable contribution that goes way beyond simply hosting a PDF. Even good work is genuinely improved by going through this process. How much are these editors paid? They are paid ad honorarium. I know editors who are paid a grand sum of 500$ a year. You are significantly over estimating the costs.
      - gradstudent 10y ago
        > You are significantly over estimating the costs. I wasn't talking about costs. I was talking about the value of the review and editorial process which is organised around journal publication. There is no equivalent for arXiv. Journals add value and a PDF hosting service is not an equivalent substitute.
        denzil_correa 10y ago
        > Journals add value and a PDF hosting service is not an equivalent substitute. This value added do not justify the costs.

JadeNB 10y ago

> That cost is ridiculous to host online PDFs. Agreed, but: without defending the pricing practices of journals (I don't know much about it, but assume that there's just as much predatory pricing in OA as, if not more than, in traditional journals), if that's all you want, then you can post your PDF on the arXiv for free. The journal purports to add some value—at the very least, it adds the prestige of being published in that journal, which I imagine for many of us is literally the only advantage over the arXiv.

denzil_correa 10y ago
> The journal purports to add some value—at the very least, it adds the prestige of being published in that journal, which I imagine for many of us is literally the only advantage over the arXiv. The journal in itself does not ANY value. The people who peer review the articles in journal do it at no cost. The articles are completely written by authors. The ONLY value that the journal adds is by hosting online PDFs.
- gradstudent 10y ago
  > The journal in itself does not ANY value. The people who peer review the articles in journal do it at no cost. The articles are completely written by authors. The ONLY value that the journal adds is by hosting online PDFs. I suppose if you are not a practicing scientist the difference between a PDF hosted by a journal and a PDF on arXiv can seem irrelevant. It is not. Good journals have an effective peer review process that requires editors who will curate articles, match them with expert reviewers and subsequently provide their own meta review on the paper and the process. All of this is a valuable contribution that goes way beyond simply hosting a PDF. Even good work is genuinely improved by going through this process.
  - denzil_correa 10y ago
    > I suppose if you are not a practicing scientist I am. I'm reviewing 2 papers this moment. > Good journals have an effective peer review process that requires editors who will curate articles, match them with expert reviewers and subsequently provide their own meta review on the paper and the process. All of this is a valuable contribution that goes way beyond simply hosting a PDF. Even good work is genuinely improved by going through this process. How much are these editors paid? They are paid ad honorarium. I know editors who are paid a grand sum of 500$ a year. You are significantly over estimating the costs.
    - gradstudent 10y ago
      > You are significantly over estimating the costs. I wasn't talking about costs. I was talking about the value of the review and editorial process which is organised around journal publication. There is no equivalent for arXiv. Journals add value and a PDF hosting service is not an equivalent substitute.
      - denzil_correa 10y ago
        > Journals add value and a PDF hosting service is not an equivalent substitute. This value added do not justify the costs.