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If we really wanted to cut back on crime, paying prisoners a fair wage for their labor would be a huge step in that direction. Getting out of jail and being ab

by rblatz 10y ago

If we really wanted to cut back on crime, paying prisoners a fair wage for their labor would be a huge step in that direction. Getting out of jail and being able to afford housing and food on your own allows you to establish independence. Vs the system we have now that drives you right back into the same situation you were in that most likely caused you to go to prison in the first place.

germinalphrase 10y ago
Absolutely agree, but recent news articles suggest that many of the rural communities that contain prisons are functionally dependent on this free/cheap labor for public services (landscaping, trash clean up, etc.). When prison populations decline, there is a perception that the community suffers in excess of the potential for lost employment. Paying the inmates a proper wage would have a comparable effect.
- pjc50 10y ago
  Isn't this the reverse of the "immigrants taking our jobs" argument?
  - cryptarch 10y ago
    Two sides of the same coin? a.) Immigrants out of prison are bad, because they do work for minimum wage or more. b.) Immigrants in prison are good, because they do work for less then minimum wage.
    - JadeNB 10y ago
      > Two sides of the same coin? > b.) Immigrants in prison are good, because they do work for less then minimum wage. I think that (b) doesn't really respond to the argument. Those who worry that "the immigrants are taking our jobs" are worried precisely that immigrants will do 'our jobs' for less than we would, making it likely that an employer will hire them instead. The situation being described is precisely one where prisoners will do work for free, as a result of which no non-prisoner members of the community has a chance of being paid to do that work.
- themartorana 10y ago
  Depending on slave labor is so abhorrent to begin with, I don't much care what happens to communities that lean on it.
  - roywiggins 10y ago
    Of course removing the slave labor will radically change the economy and render parts of it untenable. imho an economy predicated on slave labor doesn't really deserve to exist at all.
witty_username 10y ago
If you put a minimum wage that's significantly higher than the existing wage, then nobody'll employ prisoners. Why do you think the market's price in this case is wrong or unfair?
- weaksauce 10y ago
  > paying prisoners a fair wage for their labor > then nobody'll employ prisoners I doubt that your conclusion follows this assertion. Paying prisoners a few dollars per hour vs. a few cents per hour is still a net win for the corporations. They might(not sure but knowing our system it's quite possible) get tax benefits for this too.
  - witty_username 10y ago
    Then, wouldn't the corporations increase the price till all prisoners are working? I'm guessing many prisoners aren't working. Feel free to correct me here.
- mattzito 10y ago
  There's a value to the employer to pay minimum wage, while having a "captive" (pun somewhat intended) employee base who doesn't suddenly quit and can't go get a better job due to unrealistic demands.
  - witty_username 10y ago
    No, the employer just needs to adjust wage so it's a bit higher than market price (in which case you'd get a less risk of suddenly quitting versus the average in the market). Or the employer can use golden handcuffs.
    - mattzito 10y ago
      I think you simultaneously overestimate the value the employer puts on call center employees and and the level of interest your typical call center employee has in keeping that job. A small amount of increase isn't going to help reduce turnover.
sandworm101 10y ago
I'm all for helping prisoners, but part of this strike is against the concept of prisons as economic engines. Imho prisons should not engage in profitable business. It creates too much incentive to keep productive people behind bars. And it turns those productive workers into a commodity. That said, I have absolutely no issue with prisoners working, long as they are paid an appropriate wage and the activity doesn't turn a profit for the prison. Either give all the profits to the prisoners in pay, or run the operation as a rehabilitation program at a net loss.
- emidln 10y ago
  I don't believe there is a fair wage for someone who is compelled to work not of their own choosing. As to the idea of prison labor, there can be no revenue (not simply profit) from the prison system that is just. Society should pay a burden to separate those within itself from the rest. Any attempts to recoup costs (let alone profit) fall prey to a perverse incentive to keep prisoners longer than is absolutely necessary for the well-being of the Society. I don't think we currently care about the well-being of Society, at least judged by how we treat prisoners. Our system of justice, at least in the United States, seeks punishment instead of rehabilitation.
wyager 10y ago
There's no such thing as an "fair wage". Or at least, it's not some number you can come up with. Prisoners should be able to take any job they can plausibly do from inside at any salary they can get. The only "fair" possibility is to allow the establishment of a market. Imagine if a computer programmer was sent to prison. In all likelihood the most productive thing for themselves and for society would be for them to do a programming job from the inside. Instead, they're being paid slave wages and forced to make license plates.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  No. Prisons aren't a market. They are the definition of a command economy.
  - wyager 10y ago
    Obviously that's how it is right now. I am arguing against the current state of affairs.
- olalonde 10y ago
  > Prisoners should be able to take any job they can plausibly do from inside at any salary they can get. Prisons also serve to punish and deter. Allowing inmates to earn market wages would make their punishment a lot lighter, especially for white-collars. Maximising "productivity" isn't and shouldn't be a priority for prisons.
  - cldellow 10y ago
    You could address this by a punitive tax regime for prisoners. Then the person could still be earning more than a few cents per hour but additionally is contributing more to society via taxes. This also mitigates the undercutting of the non felon labour market. I'm not really advocating for this, but it'd be one angle to consider.
themartorana 10y ago
So right. Many people in prison land there because they were never treated with any dignity in their life to begin with. We don't even need to wonder if it would work. We can look at other countries for proof (and if you want proof our methods don't work, you can look around, too).
ChuckMcM 10y ago
To be honest, if we had jobs that paid a fair wage before they went to jail that would really cut back on crime.
superuser2 10y ago
Hah. The very first thing we'd do after letting prisoners earn a decent wage is charge it all back to recoup the cost of their imprisonment.

by rblatz 10y ago

germinalphrase 10y ago

Absolutely agree, but recent news articles suggest that many of the rural communities that contain prisons are functionally dependent on this free/cheap labor for public services (landscaping, trash clean up, etc.). When prison populations decline, there is a perception that the community suffers in excess of the potential for lost employment. Paying the inmates a proper wage would have a comparable effect.

pjc50 10y ago
Isn't this the reverse of the "immigrants taking our jobs" argument?
- cryptarch 10y ago
  Two sides of the same coin? a.) Immigrants out of prison are bad, because they do work for minimum wage or more. b.) Immigrants in prison are good, because they do work for less then minimum wage.
  - JadeNB 10y ago
    > Two sides of the same coin? > b.) Immigrants in prison are good, because they do work for less then minimum wage. I think that (b) doesn't really respond to the argument. Those who worry that "the immigrants are taking our jobs" are worried precisely that immigrants will do 'our jobs' for less than we would, making it likely that an employer will hire them instead. The situation being described is precisely one where prisoners will do work for free, as a result of which no non-prisoner members of the community has a chance of being paid to do that work.
themartorana 10y ago
Depending on slave labor is so abhorrent to begin with, I don't much care what happens to communities that lean on it.
- roywiggins 10y ago
  Of course removing the slave labor will radically change the economy and render parts of it untenable. imho an economy predicated on slave labor doesn't really deserve to exist at all.

witty_username 10y ago

If you put a minimum wage that's significantly higher than the existing wage, then nobody'll employ prisoners. Why do you think the market's price in this case is wrong or unfair?

weaksauce 10y ago
> paying prisoners a fair wage for their labor > then nobody'll employ prisoners I doubt that your conclusion follows this assertion. Paying prisoners a few dollars per hour vs. a few cents per hour is still a net win for the corporations. They might(not sure but knowing our system it's quite possible) get tax benefits for this too.
- witty_username 10y ago
  Then, wouldn't the corporations increase the price till all prisoners are working? I'm guessing many prisoners aren't working. Feel free to correct me here.
mattzito 10y ago
There's a value to the employer to pay minimum wage, while having a "captive" (pun somewhat intended) employee base who doesn't suddenly quit and can't go get a better job due to unrealistic demands.
- witty_username 10y ago
  No, the employer just needs to adjust wage so it's a bit higher than market price (in which case you'd get a less risk of suddenly quitting versus the average in the market). Or the employer can use golden handcuffs.
  - mattzito 10y ago
    I think you simultaneously overestimate the value the employer puts on call center employees and and the level of interest your typical call center employee has in keeping that job. A small amount of increase isn't going to help reduce turnover.

sandworm101 10y ago

I'm all for helping prisoners, but part of this strike is against the concept of prisons as economic engines. Imho prisons should not engage in profitable business. It creates too much incentive to keep productive people behind bars. And it turns those productive workers into a commodity. That said, I have absolutely no issue with prisoners working, long as they are paid an appropriate wage and the activity doesn't turn a profit for the prison. Either give all the profits to the prisoners in pay, or run the operation as a rehabilitation program at a net loss.

emidln 10y ago
I don't believe there is a fair wage for someone who is compelled to work not of their own choosing. As to the idea of prison labor, there can be no revenue (not simply profit) from the prison system that is just. Society should pay a burden to separate those within itself from the rest. Any attempts to recoup costs (let alone profit) fall prey to a perverse incentive to keep prisoners longer than is absolutely necessary for the well-being of the Society. I don't think we currently care about the well-being of Society, at least judged by how we treat prisoners. Our system of justice, at least in the United States, seeks punishment instead of rehabilitation.

wyager 10y ago

There's no such thing as an "fair wage". Or at least, it's not some number you can come up with. Prisoners should be able to take any job they can plausibly do from inside at any salary they can get. The only "fair" possibility is to allow the establishment of a market. Imagine if a computer programmer was sent to prison. In all likelihood the most productive thing for themselves and for society would be for them to do a programming job from the inside. Instead, they're being paid slave wages and forced to make license plates.

Spooky23 10y ago
No. Prisons aren't a market. They are the definition of a command economy.
- wyager 10y ago
  Obviously that's how it is right now. I am arguing against the current state of affairs.
olalonde 10y ago
> Prisoners should be able to take any job they can plausibly do from inside at any salary they can get. Prisons also serve to punish and deter. Allowing inmates to earn market wages would make their punishment a lot lighter, especially for white-collars. Maximising "productivity" isn't and shouldn't be a priority for prisons.
- cldellow 10y ago
  You could address this by a punitive tax regime for prisoners. Then the person could still be earning more than a few cents per hour but additionally is contributing more to society via taxes. This also mitigates the undercutting of the non felon labour market. I'm not really advocating for this, but it'd be one angle to consider.

themartorana 10y ago

So right. Many people in prison land there because they were never treated with any dignity in their life to begin with. We don't even need to wonder if it would work. We can look at other countries for proof (and if you want proof our methods don't work, you can look around, too).

ChuckMcM 10y ago

To be honest, if we had jobs that paid a fair wage before they went to jail that would really cut back on crime.

superuser2 10y ago

Hah. The very first thing we'd do after letting prisoners earn a decent wage is charge it all back to recoup the cost of their imprisonment.