4 ms·

As usual, Apple was not the first to came up with the technology, but the first to make it work really well and put it in many hands. Look at HTC. They tried a

As usual, Apple was not the first to came up with the technology, but the first to make it work really well and put it in many hands. Look at HTC. They tried and failed. Dual camera, but the Bokeh is actually a gimmick. It doesn't work.

pavlov 10y ago
It looks terrible on the iPhone 7+ as well. Look at the samples provided by Apple: http://petapixel.com/2016/09/07/iphone-7-7-plus-announced-dual-cameras-zoom-bokeh/ http://petapixel.com/2016/09/07/iphone-7-7-plus-announced-du... (Scroll about halfway down.) The fake Bokeh from the dual cameras looks like flat circles with Gaussian blur applied. It's a useless gimmick, I can't imagine ruining real photos with this look.
- philjohn 10y ago
  But because you get a digital negative, you don't have to - it's a non destructive edit.
- oceanofsolaris 10y ago
  Well, it still serves the purpose of emphasizing the foreground. It does, however, not look like the depth of field you would expect from a 'real camera'. But I don't see it as 'ruining' photos. It's just a tool in your toolbox for creating pictures.
- 4ad 10y ago
  It's very bad, but it's not on the market yet, possibly because it's so bad. Considering they have real depth information though, I don't see why it can't be made to work correctly. We'll see when it's actually released. Also my understanding is that there's no blending of images between the two cameras at all. You literally use only one camera or the other. There are existing systems on the market that do this correctly to obtain a much higher quality of image than what is possible with only one camera alone. I would expect Apple to implement this in a future software update.
  - TruthSHIFT 10y ago
    I'm not sure that they have any useful depth information. The cameras are very close together.
    - 4ad 10y ago
      Some Canon cameras can do phase detection autofocus at f/8. Let's put a 35mm lens on the camera. That means that light rays that are used by the AF system are separated by 4.375mm. Very comparable to the distance between the two iPhone lenses. The way depth information is determined with phase detection autofocus is very similar conceptually with how you'd generate a depth map in software from two separate cameras. Granted, not all cameras can do phase detection AF at f/8, and at 35mm you have enough DOF that the accuracy of the AF is not that critical. But they can do AF at f/5.6 accurate enough for a 50mm lens. That gives you 8.92mm separation. Still comparable to iPhone.
      - dom0 10y ago
        That's not quite how it works. The separation used by the AF is completely fixed by the distance between the (at least two) microlens+aperture+sensor systems that make up an phase AF sensor. The microlens/aperture system of the AF masks essentially the back plane of the lens (which follows from the exit pupil) for the AF sensor (interacting mainly with the exit telecentrism of the lens, which is why AF speed and acccuracy can widely vary with lens type, even if the same f-stop is used). Also a reason (besides the fact that many digital sensor designs perform better with telecentric designs due to increased scattering and reflections in the sensor itself compared to film) why modern lenses are almost always strongly telecentric designs. A completely separate matter is the circle of confusion which is indeed directly related to the aperture of the lens. (I hope I got most of the optical terms correct, I don't normally discuss this topic in English)
- Kiro 10y ago
  I don't see anything looking terrible there. Why are you exaggerating?
- coldtea 10y ago
  >The fake Bokeh from the dual cameras looks like flat circles with Gaussian blur applied. You can trivialy make a great bokeh implementation that's not merely a Gaussian blur. And I don't see much horrible in these examples -- perfectly fine I'd rather say, if a little overemphasized. But you can get totally blurry bokeh from some lenses, including smeared highlights instead of nice little circles...
- gcr 10y ago
  It probably is just a Gaussian blur applied to a depth map. The halo artifacts on the colored spots are a bit bad; they could have chosen better examples. Then again, it's not bad for what essentially is a research prototype. Since it's done in software, Apple could use a more uniform circle kernel instead of a Gaussian kernel to do a more authentic bokeh style.
JustSomeNobody 10y ago
We're being a bit presumptuous as they haven't _actually_ put it in _many_ hands. But, it is Apple, so I'm sure people will buy them. Missing 3.5mm jack and all...
emilsedgh 10y ago
the first to make it work really well It's not even out yet! How do you if its any better?

pavlov 10y ago

It looks terrible on the iPhone 7+ as well. Look at the samples provided by Apple: http://petapixel.com/2016/09/07/iphone-7-7-plus-announced-dual-cameras-zoom-bokeh/ http://petapixel.com/2016/09/07/iphone-7-7-plus-announced-du... (Scroll about halfway down.) The fake Bokeh from the dual cameras looks like flat circles with Gaussian blur applied. It's a useless gimmick, I can't imagine ruining real photos with this look.

philjohn 10y ago
But because you get a digital negative, you don't have to - it's a non destructive edit.
oceanofsolaris 10y ago
Well, it still serves the purpose of emphasizing the foreground. It does, however, not look like the depth of field you would expect from a 'real camera'. But I don't see it as 'ruining' photos. It's just a tool in your toolbox for creating pictures.
4ad 10y ago
It's very bad, but it's not on the market yet, possibly because it's so bad. Considering they have real depth information though, I don't see why it can't be made to work correctly. We'll see when it's actually released. Also my understanding is that there's no blending of images between the two cameras at all. You literally use only one camera or the other. There are existing systems on the market that do this correctly to obtain a much higher quality of image than what is possible with only one camera alone. I would expect Apple to implement this in a future software update.
- TruthSHIFT 10y ago
  I'm not sure that they have any useful depth information. The cameras are very close together.
  - 4ad 10y ago
    Some Canon cameras can do phase detection autofocus at f/8. Let's put a 35mm lens on the camera. That means that light rays that are used by the AF system are separated by 4.375mm. Very comparable to the distance between the two iPhone lenses. The way depth information is determined with phase detection autofocus is very similar conceptually with how you'd generate a depth map in software from two separate cameras. Granted, not all cameras can do phase detection AF at f/8, and at 35mm you have enough DOF that the accuracy of the AF is not that critical. But they can do AF at f/5.6 accurate enough for a 50mm lens. That gives you 8.92mm separation. Still comparable to iPhone.
    - dom0 10y ago
      That's not quite how it works. The separation used by the AF is completely fixed by the distance between the (at least two) microlens+aperture+sensor systems that make up an phase AF sensor. The microlens/aperture system of the AF masks essentially the back plane of the lens (which follows from the exit pupil) for the AF sensor (interacting mainly with the exit telecentrism of the lens, which is why AF speed and acccuracy can widely vary with lens type, even if the same f-stop is used). Also a reason (besides the fact that many digital sensor designs perform better with telecentric designs due to increased scattering and reflections in the sensor itself compared to film) why modern lenses are almost always strongly telecentric designs. A completely separate matter is the circle of confusion which is indeed directly related to the aperture of the lens. (I hope I got most of the optical terms correct, I don't normally discuss this topic in English)
Kiro 10y ago
I don't see anything looking terrible there. Why are you exaggerating?
coldtea 10y ago
>The fake Bokeh from the dual cameras looks like flat circles with Gaussian blur applied. You can trivialy make a great bokeh implementation that's not merely a Gaussian blur. And I don't see much horrible in these examples -- perfectly fine I'd rather say, if a little overemphasized. But you can get totally blurry bokeh from some lenses, including smeared highlights instead of nice little circles...
gcr 10y ago
It probably is just a Gaussian blur applied to a depth map. The halo artifacts on the colored spots are a bit bad; they could have chosen better examples. Then again, it's not bad for what essentially is a research prototype. Since it's done in software, Apple could use a more uniform circle kernel instead of a Gaussian kernel to do a more authentic bokeh style.

JustSomeNobody 10y ago

We're being a bit presumptuous as they haven't _actually_ put it in _many_ hands. But, it is Apple, so I'm sure people will buy them. Missing 3.5mm jack and all...

emilsedgh 10y ago

the first to make it work really well It's not even out yet! How do you if its any better?