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I hear you. But I think that the default assumption by so many is: 'Racism exists, ergo, racism is the primary driver of poverty, inequality' etc.. I strongl

I hear you. But I think that the default assumption by so many is: 'Racism exists, ergo, racism is the primary driver of poverty, inequality' etc.. I strongly object to this assertion. Of course racism exists, and it's a problem, and it needs to be dealt with - however - I don't think it's the primary root cause of anything. In fact - 'over aggressive policing' is probably a function of 'mass crime zones' - and not the other way around. Obviously there is a feedback loop here, in that extra hard policing creates more negative outcomes ... but if there weren't crazy amounts of crime, cops would be chill. My grandparents were born on farms and grew up very poor by today's standards. They had almost nothing. There were guns on every farm ... and yet crime was rare. There were no gangs. They were of specific ethnic groups and certainly faced open discrimination - many would not speak or interact with my German great-grandparents. My grandfather's extended family did not attend his wedding because he married a Catholic (!). My great-grand parents on one side were disowned by both families because she was 'French Quebecois Catholic' and he was 'English Upper Canadian Protestant'. And yet somehow there wasn't 'mass crime'. I'm not insensitive to the systematic issues some people face - and it's terrible - but by positing that 'the system is the problem' entirely removes really bad individual decisions that are made on a daily basis within some communities and this I find to be wrong and we have to be careful about. We give a 'free pass' to some groups for upholding as 'de facto' role models, the absolute worst, most terrible role models imaginable. I'm thinking 'Chief Keef' to start with. Brilliant artist. But his brand of music is boils down to: 'Look at me funny and I will kill you. See: here are the guns I will use. Of course, a 13 year old kid mocked him on youtube, and a few hours later, the kid dead, murdered by one of Chief Keef's goons. His videos boil down to shirtless teens in a room with guns, Ak-47's pointed at the camera - in threatening poses. So 'we' as a society - handed him over $1 Million dollars for a recording contract. Because of his ethnic background - we turn a blind eye to his call to mass murder- worse, we make him the role model for the community, what everyone else aspires to be. Nobody on CNN calls it into question. It's complete insanity. In 2016, you can literally call people to murder others, make a video about it, and as long as it has a nice beat - and you are from a group that is marginalized - you're a hero, you get a million bucks and hundreds of acolytes around town trying to copy you. These cultural issues I believe are closer to 'root causes' than police, trying to do their jobs, some of whom are idiots.

tptacek 10y ago
"Mass crime zones" are a direct product of racism. There's a reason that all the crime in Chicago is concentrated around Lawndale and Englewood: black people were redlined into the those neighborhoods, until the early 1970s. I linked upthread to a Ta Nahesi Coates article. I think you should take 30 minutes and read it with an open mind. I thought I was on top of this stuff. But, damn.
- kbenson 10y ago
  > I linked upthread to a Ta Nahesi Coates article. Okay, I just wasted more time than I'm comfortable admitting looping through trying to look for that link, getting distracted by new parts of the conversation, and starting over. Mind pointing it out?
  - tptacek 10y ago
    Sorry! http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case... (By the way: I don't particularly think reparations are a good idea. But: damn.)
    - kbenson 10y ago
      Oh, that wasn't directed at you. I'm just too frazzled by the week I've had (first week back from vacation is always a zinger) to to function well at the end of a Friday, so figured I would cut to the chase. :) Thanks!
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  As for the Coates Article - I agree with a lot of the sentiment. And thanks for the link by the way. Listen - I AGREE - that perhaps there should be 'reparations' - I'm not really against that. I AGREE that historical injustices have led to Black people being marginalized. I generally support affirmative action programs. I AGREE that copes, in some circumstances are simply racist idiots and something must be done about it. But listen - in 1962 - young Black kids, with incredible poise, had to face down KKK open-racism to get to school. In 2016 - the 1/2 Black Chicago police force had to create 'golden paths' - specially protected zones for kids to get to and fro school safely - so as not to be killed by other Black people. Getting kids to attend school, let alone graduate - is a serious problem. There are tons of resources and people doing everything they can to help. This is the opposite of the 1960's. The situation is not anymore like the 1960s. We now have a large cohort of African Americans who seem to be doing pretty well - improving. But another cohort who are out of control. The rate of crime in some areas of America is the highest in the world where it's recorded. Chicago, New Orleans, Baltimore - all have higher crime rates than those 'crazy violent' countries like Nicaragua, Coloumbia etc. In the early 1960's - still very 'racist America' - there was 1/8th as much crime as there was in 1992, and the crime rate now is still about 4x what it was during 'racist America'. Nobody can say the America is 'more racist' now - the article affirms this. So why - after so much 'social progress' - is there massively more crime in these areas? I fully support addressing this problem - but racism is not the cause of 'mass violence' - and that we turn a blind eye to terrible behaviour is adding to the problem. "Mass crime zones" are a direct product of racism. " This is mostly false. Many ethnic groups faced (and continue to face) serious racism over the years - and yet those places did not turn into war-zones. Have you travelled the world? You will find 'high ethnic concentrations of marginalized people' in almost every country. Go to a Korean enclave in Japan: the Koreans face open and overt discrimination and racism - and yet - no mass crime. In fact, hardly any crime at all. Black people are openly discriminated against in Northern Africa by the Arabs there - but guess what - no mass crime. Crime by Sub-Saharan Africans in the Maghreb (at least in Tunisia) is lower than that of African Americans in America. Americans are in reality some of the least racist people in the world. Outside of the Western world - racism is basically the standard - it's out in the open. It's not often considered a 'social issue'. Do you see racist acts around you? Probably not. Is it acceptable for anyone to use the n-word? No way. It's exceedingly rare for Americans to act in overtly racist manner, though obviously, a lot of systematic racism exists. On the contrary - there is an extreme degree of racial sensitivity in America in almost every organization and societal level. Obviously - African Americans are a very special case, and racism is a contributing factor - but it is not the root cause. Turning a blind eye to extraordinarily bad behaviour - and worse - glamorizing it - is probably the worst thing we could possibly do to help. Validating the worst possible people as 'role models' for young, troubled men is basically insane.

tptacek 10y ago

"Mass crime zones" are a direct product of racism. There's a reason that all the crime in Chicago is concentrated around Lawndale and Englewood: black people were redlined into the those neighborhoods, until the early 1970s. I linked upthread to a Ta Nahesi Coates article. I think you should take 30 minutes and read it with an open mind. I thought I was on top of this stuff. But, damn.

kbenson 10y ago
> I linked upthread to a Ta Nahesi Coates article. Okay, I just wasted more time than I'm comfortable admitting looping through trying to look for that link, getting distracted by new parts of the conversation, and starting over. Mind pointing it out?
- tptacek 10y ago
  Sorry! http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case... (By the way: I don't particularly think reparations are a good idea. But: damn.)
  - kbenson 10y ago
    Oh, that wasn't directed at you. I'm just too frazzled by the week I've had (first week back from vacation is always a zinger) to to function well at the end of a Friday, so figured I would cut to the chase. :) Thanks!
jomamaxx 10y ago
As for the Coates Article - I agree with a lot of the sentiment. And thanks for the link by the way. Listen - I AGREE - that perhaps there should be 'reparations' - I'm not really against that. I AGREE that historical injustices have led to Black people being marginalized. I generally support affirmative action programs. I AGREE that copes, in some circumstances are simply racist idiots and something must be done about it. But listen - in 1962 - young Black kids, with incredible poise, had to face down KKK open-racism to get to school. In 2016 - the 1/2 Black Chicago police force had to create 'golden paths' - specially protected zones for kids to get to and fro school safely - so as not to be killed by other Black people. Getting kids to attend school, let alone graduate - is a serious problem. There are tons of resources and people doing everything they can to help. This is the opposite of the 1960's. The situation is not anymore like the 1960s. We now have a large cohort of African Americans who seem to be doing pretty well - improving. But another cohort who are out of control. The rate of crime in some areas of America is the highest in the world where it's recorded. Chicago, New Orleans, Baltimore - all have higher crime rates than those 'crazy violent' countries like Nicaragua, Coloumbia etc. In the early 1960's - still very 'racist America' - there was 1/8th as much crime as there was in 1992, and the crime rate now is still about 4x what it was during 'racist America'. Nobody can say the America is 'more racist' now - the article affirms this. So why - after so much 'social progress' - is there massively more crime in these areas? I fully support addressing this problem - but racism is not the cause of 'mass violence' - and that we turn a blind eye to terrible behaviour is adding to the problem. "Mass crime zones" are a direct product of racism. " This is mostly false. Many ethnic groups faced (and continue to face) serious racism over the years - and yet those places did not turn into war-zones. Have you travelled the world? You will find 'high ethnic concentrations of marginalized people' in almost every country. Go to a Korean enclave in Japan: the Koreans face open and overt discrimination and racism - and yet - no mass crime. In fact, hardly any crime at all. Black people are openly discriminated against in Northern Africa by the Arabs there - but guess what - no mass crime. Crime by Sub-Saharan Africans in the Maghreb (at least in Tunisia) is lower than that of African Americans in America. Americans are in reality some of the least racist people in the world. Outside of the Western world - racism is basically the standard - it's out in the open. It's not often considered a 'social issue'. Do you see racist acts around you? Probably not. Is it acceptable for anyone to use the n-word? No way. It's exceedingly rare for Americans to act in overtly racist manner, though obviously, a lot of systematic racism exists. On the contrary - there is an extreme degree of racial sensitivity in America in almost every organization and societal level. Obviously - African Americans are a very special case, and racism is a contributing factor - but it is not the root cause. Turning a blind eye to extraordinarily bad behaviour - and worse - glamorizing it - is probably the worst thing we could possibly do to help. Validating the worst possible people as 'role models' for young, troubled men is basically insane.