6 ms·

What if someone maims me, or murders a close relative, and I feel the only way to repair the harm I've suffered is to punish the offender? "Hurting criminals"

What if someone maims me, or murders a close relative, and I feel the only way to repair the harm I've suffered is to punish the offender? "Hurting criminals" isn't just done to deter future crimes, it's done to satisfy the needs of the victims.

MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
It strikes me as inherently unproductive, on a societal level, to make vengeance a policy, as it so often results in a positive feedback loop of grievances. The grievances of the punished are not recognized as legitimate, so they're frequently displaced onto others, creating more desire for punishment and eventually more victims. Admittedly, you're expressing a common sentiment. I've never been the victim of a violent crime, so I can't speak to the experience of feeling a need for satisfactory vengeance. But it seems to me to be one of the worse aspects of human nature, which we should seek to overcome through enacting laws seeking restorative justice, or at least non-vengeance based punishment systems. Unfortunately, the letter of the law has little to say about the underlying human desire for vengeance when wronged, and instead seems to often start from the axiom that satisfaction must be given. I wish this were more frequently and publicly questioned. FYI, this is an excellent book on the subject: "Inferno: An Anatomy of American Justice" by Robert Ferguson (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674728684 http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674728684)
rndgermandude 10y ago
Punishing such an offender does not repair the harm, the dead will not undead again and limbs will not grow back either. It's vengeance, plain and simple. Will the law and state exacting revenge make the victims feel better as a consolation prize? Probably not[1]. [1] http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/06/revenge.aspx http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/06/revenge.aspx
jotux 10y ago
I've never understood this as an adult. It's fine to make someone else suffer because they did it to you? What reasonable person feels better because they see someone else suffer? What kind of logic is that?
- blackbagboys 10y ago
  Have you ever been seriously injured by a criminal or have had a loved one seriously injured by a criminal? Vengeance is a perfectly natural and reasonable expectation of someone in such a situation and an essential element of justice. If the state doesn't provide it, people will take it into their own hands.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Have you ever been seriously injured by a criminal or have had a loved one seriously injured by a criminal? Yes, both. > Vengeance is a perfectly natural and reasonable expectation of someone in such a situation Natural, obviously (everything that occurs is "natural"; there is nothing but nature.) Reasonable, no. > and an essential element of justice. This is a moral axiom that is far from universally accepted, rather than any kind of statement of verifiable fact. > If the state doesn't provide it, people will take it into their own hands. If the state doesn't provide it, some subset of victims will take it into their own hands (and even if the state does provide any particular version of "vengeance", some subset of victims will still take additional or differently-targeted vengeance into their own hands.) There are lots of things some percentage of people will do on their own if the state doesn't do it for them, but that fact is not, in and of itself, support for the claim that the state doing those things is essential.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> What if someone maims me, or murders a close relative, and I feel the only way to repair the harm I've suffered is to punish the offender? Repairing private harms isn't the purpose of the criminal justice system, its the purpose of the civil justice system, where imprisonment and capital punishment aren't even options. The criminal justice system exist to address (whether in a punitive, restorative, or preventive sense), harms to society as a whole. > "Hurting criminals" isn't just done to deter future crimes, it's done to satisfy the needs of the victims. Hurting wrongdoers to "satisfy the needs of the victims" doesn't do much to satisfy actual needs of the victims, but does create a society with a lot more victims and wrongdoers.
ue_ 10y ago
Whether those needs ought to be satisfied is a question in its own right. How do we decide which needs should be satisfied and which shouldn't be? Not only that, but these needs arise out of attachment and clinging and a mind that has not been kept steady. Based on hate and delusion, in many cases. I personally do not think that so much importance should be given to the mental state of people affected by trauma. I mean no offense to them, but due to inadequate training in dealing with emotions (which pretty much everyone lacks) their minds are often affected and not kept steady. I suspect that this is one of the reasons why we don't let victims decide penalties. But judges and especially juries can be affected by outrage, hatred and delusion too. They also cling.
peeters 10y ago
Relevant West Wing: https://youtu.be/Zrap9ljIVWk?t=2m3s https://youtu.be/Zrap9ljIVWk?t=2m3s.
888uuii 10y ago
Redemption and rehabilitation must be the aim of universal law, not vengeance.

MaxfordAndSons 10y ago

It strikes me as inherently unproductive, on a societal level, to make vengeance a policy, as it so often results in a positive feedback loop of grievances. The grievances of the punished are not recognized as legitimate, so they're frequently displaced onto others, creating more desire for punishment and eventually more victims. Admittedly, you're expressing a common sentiment. I've never been the victim of a violent crime, so I can't speak to the experience of feeling a need for satisfactory vengeance. But it seems to me to be one of the worse aspects of human nature, which we should seek to overcome through enacting laws seeking restorative justice, or at least non-vengeance based punishment systems. Unfortunately, the letter of the law has little to say about the underlying human desire for vengeance when wronged, and instead seems to often start from the axiom that satisfaction must be given. I wish this were more frequently and publicly questioned. FYI, this is an excellent book on the subject: "Inferno: An Anatomy of American Justice" by Robert Ferguson (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674728684 http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674728684)

rndgermandude 10y ago

Punishing such an offender does not repair the harm, the dead will not undead again and limbs will not grow back either. It's vengeance, plain and simple. Will the law and state exacting revenge make the victims feel better as a consolation prize? Probably not[1]. [1] http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/06/revenge.aspx http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/06/revenge.aspx

jotux 10y ago

I've never understood this as an adult. It's fine to make someone else suffer because they did it to you? What reasonable person feels better because they see someone else suffer? What kind of logic is that?

blackbagboys 10y ago
Have you ever been seriously injured by a criminal or have had a loved one seriously injured by a criminal? Vengeance is a perfectly natural and reasonable expectation of someone in such a situation and an essential element of justice. If the state doesn't provide it, people will take it into their own hands.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Have you ever been seriously injured by a criminal or have had a loved one seriously injured by a criminal? Yes, both. > Vengeance is a perfectly natural and reasonable expectation of someone in such a situation Natural, obviously (everything that occurs is "natural"; there is nothing but nature.) Reasonable, no. > and an essential element of justice. This is a moral axiom that is far from universally accepted, rather than any kind of statement of verifiable fact. > If the state doesn't provide it, people will take it into their own hands. If the state doesn't provide it, some subset of victims will take it into their own hands (and even if the state does provide any particular version of "vengeance", some subset of victims will still take additional or differently-targeted vengeance into their own hands.) There are lots of things some percentage of people will do on their own if the state doesn't do it for them, but that fact is not, in and of itself, support for the claim that the state doing those things is essential.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> What if someone maims me, or murders a close relative, and I feel the only way to repair the harm I've suffered is to punish the offender? Repairing private harms isn't the purpose of the criminal justice system, its the purpose of the civil justice system, where imprisonment and capital punishment aren't even options. The criminal justice system exist to address (whether in a punitive, restorative, or preventive sense), harms to society as a whole. > "Hurting criminals" isn't just done to deter future crimes, it's done to satisfy the needs of the victims. Hurting wrongdoers to "satisfy the needs of the victims" doesn't do much to satisfy actual needs of the victims, but does create a society with a lot more victims and wrongdoers.

ue_ 10y ago

Whether those needs ought to be satisfied is a question in its own right. How do we decide which needs should be satisfied and which shouldn't be? Not only that, but these needs arise out of attachment and clinging and a mind that has not been kept steady. Based on hate and delusion, in many cases. I personally do not think that so much importance should be given to the mental state of people affected by trauma. I mean no offense to them, but due to inadequate training in dealing with emotions (which pretty much everyone lacks) their minds are often affected and not kept steady. I suspect that this is one of the reasons why we don't let victims decide penalties. But judges and especially juries can be affected by outrage, hatred and delusion too. They also cling.

peeters 10y ago

Relevant West Wing: https://youtu.be/Zrap9ljIVWk?t=2m3s https://youtu.be/Zrap9ljIVWk?t=2m3s.

888uuii 10y ago

Redemption and rehabilitation must be the aim of universal law, not vengeance.