7 ms·

There should be some executives losing their jobs and freedom, if this guy is pleading guilty to several felonies. He wasn't acting on his own initiative.

sliverstorm 10y ago
That's why I'm a little crestfallen that an engineer was first to be charged. By all means, charge the guilty & complicit, but I'm apprehensive the order could aide the narrative VW's execs tried to spin at first ('This company-wide scandal was clearly the work of exactly one rouge engineer') and help them get out scot-free.
- beachstartup 10y ago
  most likely they are going after this like a drug dealing or racketeering outfit, from the bottom up, using plea bargain testimony to make the path easier as they go. but if not, yeah, this would be a farcical miscarriage of justice if a bunch of engineers end up taking the fall for this.
- kuschku 10y ago
  "Engineer" at VW doesn’t mean he wasn’t in a managing position – VW almost exclusively promotes their engineers to managers, and rarely ever hires external talent.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    ISTM this policy could ensure that no experienced engineer or manager whose time at other firms taught her to scrupulously follow the law and expect the same of colleagues, could join the team and expose their ongoing schemes. It's kind of like how the mafia works. One doesn't get "made" without a half a dozen murders to one's name, to discourage defection. When a young engineer starts at VW, she wouldn't be shown the truly evil shit, but she might be encouraged to cut a few ethical corners. Once she's done that a few times, they own her.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      On the other hand, it ensures the managers, up to the CEO, actually understand what they're talking about. No more dealing with managers not understanding anything about what they manage. Doing this — only promoting your oen engineers to managers — improves efficiency by many times. And the story of VW in the US started with the EPA violating the law and discriminating against VW for a few years, after which most likely even experienced talent would say "if they break the law to keep us out and protect their local industry, let's break the same law to get us in". (Read more about this in the SPIEGEL).
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  > James Robert Liang, leader of diesel competence for VW from 2008 until June This isn't a guy quietly tinkering with hardware or writing code in a cubicle; he was in a leadership position. Seems to me, though, they should be charging people above and below him, as long as it can be proven that they knowingly assisted in this.
jasonkostempski 10y ago
Just to play devil's advocate, maybe the requirements really are way over the line. In that case I wouldn't hold any grudges. Just because something is classified a felony doesn't mean it's morally wrong. Edit: To clarify, I'm not suggesting this guy taking the dive for the execs is ok, just that someone lying about emission test results may not be as horrible as they're trying to make it sound.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  He signed up to be accountable for this. It's a way. http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/mistakesdemotivator.jpeg?v=1416776264 http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/mistakes...
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  I'd say that causing 11 million cars to spew pollution into the atmosphere against regulations is fairly repugnant from a moral perspective. It's not different than him going around the back of a chemical plant that produces toxic byproducts, and opening a valve that releases toxins into a river when he knows the inspectors aren't watching. edit: actually saw the number of cars.
  - toast0 10y ago
    Regarding emissions, it's a tradeoff: increased engine temperature increases NOx emissions, but also increases fuel economy, decreasing carbon emissions. I was unable to quickly find a consensus on which type of emission is worse or how to weigh one versus another. Regarding regulatory compliance, defeat devices are clearly unacceptable; if the regulated requirements are considered inappropriate for whatever reason, they should be challenged through political or legal process, not by detecting test conditions and altering behavior.
- e28eta 10y ago
  I don't think it's that VW can't meet the requirements, it's that they don't think it'll be as commercially successful. I think it's the tension between emissions requirements and customer demand for powerful vehicles. As allowable emissions decrease over the years, which automaker will be successful shipping a vehicle that has less power than the previous model? And that's the whole reason for emissions requirements, left to their own devices, automakers and customers weren't getting it done.
SwellJoe 10y ago
It's almost always the little guys who take the fall. The banking crisis resulted in very few criminal charges...a lot of lower level employees lost their jobs and otherwise faced consequences, while the executives continued on as though nothing happened (they maybe took somewhat smaller bonuses that year, and acted chastened by the whole sordid affair, of course). I suspect it'll be the same, though at least the CEO resigned over this. I'm sure Winterkorn remains a multimillionaire, and will continue to enjoy his freedom and lack of criminal record.
slavik81 10y ago
The CEO of Volkswagen international, the President of the US division and the heads of R&D for Audi and Porsche were fired/resigned almost immediately. Some of them were reported as engineers, because some of them were engineers. Engineer and executive are not mutually exclusive titles. As for this guy, I'm having trouble finding more details, but as "Leader of Diesel Competence", he may very well be the technical manager directly in charge of the design of the engines.
criddell 10y ago
I'm not saying only Liang should be punished, but the guy has no upheld is professional obligations and so he should not be allowed to work as an Engineer any longer.

sliverstorm 10y ago

That's why I'm a little crestfallen that an engineer was first to be charged. By all means, charge the guilty & complicit, but I'm apprehensive the order could aide the narrative VW's execs tried to spin at first ('This company-wide scandal was clearly the work of exactly one rouge engineer') and help them get out scot-free.

beachstartup 10y ago
most likely they are going after this like a drug dealing or racketeering outfit, from the bottom up, using plea bargain testimony to make the path easier as they go. but if not, yeah, this would be a farcical miscarriage of justice if a bunch of engineers end up taking the fall for this.
kuschku 10y ago
"Engineer" at VW doesn’t mean he wasn’t in a managing position – VW almost exclusively promotes their engineers to managers, and rarely ever hires external talent.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  ISTM this policy could ensure that no experienced engineer or manager whose time at other firms taught her to scrupulously follow the law and expect the same of colleagues, could join the team and expose their ongoing schemes. It's kind of like how the mafia works. One doesn't get "made" without a half a dozen murders to one's name, to discourage defection. When a young engineer starts at VW, she wouldn't be shown the truly evil shit, but she might be encouraged to cut a few ethical corners. Once she's done that a few times, they own her.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    On the other hand, it ensures the managers, up to the CEO, actually understand what they're talking about. No more dealing with managers not understanding anything about what they manage. Doing this — only promoting your oen engineers to managers — improves efficiency by many times. And the story of VW in the US started with the EPA violating the law and discriminating against VW for a few years, after which most likely even experienced talent would say "if they break the law to keep us out and protect their local industry, let's break the same law to get us in". (Read more about this in the SPIEGEL).
pavel_lishin 10y ago
> James Robert Liang, leader of diesel competence for VW from 2008 until June This isn't a guy quietly tinkering with hardware or writing code in a cubicle; he was in a leadership position. Seems to me, though, they should be charging people above and below him, as long as it can be proven that they knowingly assisted in this.

jasonkostempski 10y ago

Just to play devil's advocate, maybe the requirements really are way over the line. In that case I wouldn't hold any grudges. Just because something is classified a felony doesn't mean it's morally wrong. Edit: To clarify, I'm not suggesting this guy taking the dive for the execs is ok, just that someone lying about emission test results may not be as horrible as they're trying to make it sound.

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
He signed up to be accountable for this. It's a way. http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/mistakesdemotivator.jpeg?v=1416776264 http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/mistakes...
pavel_lishin 10y ago
I'd say that causing 11 million cars to spew pollution into the atmosphere against regulations is fairly repugnant from a moral perspective. It's not different than him going around the back of a chemical plant that produces toxic byproducts, and opening a valve that releases toxins into a river when he knows the inspectors aren't watching. edit: actually saw the number of cars.
- toast0 10y ago
  Regarding emissions, it's a tradeoff: increased engine temperature increases NOx emissions, but also increases fuel economy, decreasing carbon emissions. I was unable to quickly find a consensus on which type of emission is worse or how to weigh one versus another. Regarding regulatory compliance, defeat devices are clearly unacceptable; if the regulated requirements are considered inappropriate for whatever reason, they should be challenged through political or legal process, not by detecting test conditions and altering behavior.
e28eta 10y ago
I don't think it's that VW can't meet the requirements, it's that they don't think it'll be as commercially successful. I think it's the tension between emissions requirements and customer demand for powerful vehicles. As allowable emissions decrease over the years, which automaker will be successful shipping a vehicle that has less power than the previous model? And that's the whole reason for emissions requirements, left to their own devices, automakers and customers weren't getting it done.

SwellJoe 10y ago

It's almost always the little guys who take the fall. The banking crisis resulted in very few criminal charges...a lot of lower level employees lost their jobs and otherwise faced consequences, while the executives continued on as though nothing happened (they maybe took somewhat smaller bonuses that year, and acted chastened by the whole sordid affair, of course). I suspect it'll be the same, though at least the CEO resigned over this. I'm sure Winterkorn remains a multimillionaire, and will continue to enjoy his freedom and lack of criminal record.

slavik81 10y ago

The CEO of Volkswagen international, the President of the US division and the heads of R&D for Audi and Porsche were fired/resigned almost immediately. Some of them were reported as engineers, because some of them were engineers. Engineer and executive are not mutually exclusive titles. As for this guy, I'm having trouble finding more details, but as "Leader of Diesel Competence", he may very well be the technical manager directly in charge of the design of the engines.

criddell 10y ago

I'm not saying only Liang should be punished, but the guy has no upheld is professional obligations and so he should not be allowed to work as an Engineer any longer.