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"People like free shit." How hard is that? The abstract says it in a bit more formal academic tones: " The findings suggest that for most people, the motivati
by tjic 10y ago
"People like free shit."
How hard is that?
The abstract says it in a bit more formal academic tones: " The findings suggest that for most people, the motivation for redistribution is financial self-interest".
But put it to a vote to pretty much any group of people, at any time, in any place, and they'd prefer to steal from their neighbors than they would to work themselves.
The trick of civilization is curb this impulse, thus allowing the generation of positive sum games.
As Milton Friedman once said (and apologies for butchering this; it's from memory): the wonder of capitalism is that it's the only system that restrains the capitalists.
...by which he means that every society has rapacious take-no-prisoners people.
The trick is to channel that into METAPHORIC rape and take-no-prisoners, and away from the literal implementation.
- fnlkewnf 10y agoThat's a really nice Randian narrative you've got there, but the reality is that we're trapped in a demand-limited economic state and it's slowly getting worse. At some point you have to stop coddling the wealthy with more and more handouts, and undo the damage.
- tjic 10y agoAd hominems aside, what statement that I made do you suggest is false?
- fnlkewnf 10y agoI made no such attack. You clearly identify with Randian ideals. I find it extremely ironic how you're so sensitive about logical fallacies when you start out by completely mischaracterizing your opposition with an offensive strawman argument. I mean, come on.
- dpeterson 10y agoAnd you think you win the argument immediately just by labeling the poster "Randian". As if anyone saying anything remotely un-leftist is some uncaring, selfish nut job. Maybe pick up an Ayn Rand book some time and actually read it.
- fnlkewnf 10y agoIf the original poster considers the word "Randian" offensive then perhaps they shouldn't post catchphrases like "people want free shit" taken from alt-right image macros.
- adrr 10y agoThere is income distribution going on and its to the upper elite who pay very little taxes. We have a regressive tax system disguised as progressive. So hedgefund manager can bring 8 figures of income but only pay 23%. That its the upper limit, when we actually get to see into the upper riches taxes they pay less. Take a look John Kerry's returns. 5.5M income and he only paid 15.5% in taxes. Its crazy we penalize earned income with a higher burden of taxes.
- ArkyBeagle 10y agoWe don't have a coherent and morally elegant method of defining "earned".
- greydius 10y agoPeople do like free shit. This is why the wealthy like being wealthy. They get to live comfortable lives while their money earns them more money.
- brbsix 10y agoThat's like saying "This is why farmers like being fed. They get to live comfortable lives while their crop earns them more crop." Your money doesn't earn you more money doing nothing. In a free market, you need to use it efficiently and in a way that provides value to other people. If you are careless or unlucky you will lose it. To clarify, it's not free money.
- notahacker 10y agoOver a certain wealth threshold, it takes overambitious or actively destructive portfolio management to not receive more real interest on it than a highly skilled professional can expect to earn in salary for working regular hours. (including the highly skilled professional that's being paid to manage the money)
- aninhumer 10y agoYes, the money is doing something, but its owners are not. Sure, they have to decide how to invest it, but how difficult is that really? Markets have long trended upwards, so any reasonably diverse portfolio is likely to do just fine, and many of the wealthy can even afford someone to do that for them. And even if they were making decisions for themselves, the amount they earn is primarily based on the amount they have to invest, not the quality of their choices. Are the choices of someone who earns 1% on $1billion really 100x as valuable to society as someone who earns 10% on $1million?
- ArkyBeagle 10y agoThe wealthy make money in one of two ways ( most likely a mix ). We munge these two together in the concept "profit". If the wealthy make money by consumer surplus, then that money is honorably had and we want them to make more of it. They are doing well by doing good. If the money is made by rent-seeking, then we should tax it. Now all you have to do is figure out rent-seeking. :)
- chjohasbrouck 10y agoAnother interesting way to look at this is to look at what level of income equality people are advocating for, on a macro scale. Most people making arguments against income inequality in the US seem to want income to be more equal down to and including themselves, but never very far below themselves. They want it to be equal within the US, but I have a hard time believing they'd be as excited to extend that same income equality worldwide. Doing so would see even the poorest Americans taking a massive cut in lifestyle and living at a level of poverty most people in this country have never seen or experienced.
- tjic 10y agoIndeed. It's striking that much of the OWS movement was made up of "the 2%" ... angry that they weren't in "the 1%". First world, college educated people...who'd either picked the wrong majors, or didn't want to pay back their student loans, etc.
- carapace 10y agoI don't know, I went down at looked at the camp in SF and it was homeless people, veterans, and lower-middle class folks living in tents. I don't recall anyone there who looked "2%".
- axlprose 10y agoI don't think you can gauge that kind of thing very accurately by how people "look". Having occasionally meet a few people that would fall into the "1%" category myself, I can safely say that none of them "looked" like they were in their income bracket. Things people flaunt are more often a reflection of their spending habits rather than their earnings.
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago"People like free shit" is puerile. Most people don't steal. It's quite a jump to go from being basically honest to being a thief. I think that "tax rents" is the method whereby this can be done, if it can be done at all.
- BeetleB 10y agoYour comment seems to imply that the people in favor of income redistribution are the ones that think that way. But so do those who are against redistribution. I've yet to meet a person who was against redistribution, as well as against certain benefits they get from tax money (police force, etc). Taxpayer provided services is income redistribution. Some people's incomes are being used to provide other people services. Everyone wants free shit. That's why your comment is a bit of a non-statement. It's similar to saying "Everyone likes food". Or "Everyone likes money." It doesn't explain anything.
- brbsix 10y ago> I've yet to meet a person who was against redistribution, as well as against certain benefits they get from tax money (police force, etc). I've met plenty. There are those who relish the opportunity for free market alternatives to public police forces.
- BeetleB 10y ago>I've met plenty. There are those who relish the opportunity for free market alternatives to public police forces. You've met them for police forces. But have you met any that are against all taxpayer supported services? The big one being: No military? Other than that: No transportation services (road maintenance, etc). I've met people who quickly say they want that privatized and voluntarily paid for, but when I really make them think about it, they change their mind quickly. There are always places they want to drive to that they do not want to pay for. And even if you have met such a person, they really are a minority of people in the group who are against wealth redistribution.
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- ArkyBeagle 10y ago"No military" was an actual thing in the United States prior to WWII. See any good bio. of Eisenhower for details
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