4 ms·

The solution is restorative justice, where the focus is on repairing the harm rather than punishment. For example, sending a drug addict to prison for 10 years

The solution is restorative justice, where the focus is on repairing the harm rather than punishment. For example, sending a drug addict to prison for 10 years doesn't do anything to alleviate the harm of the crime, and in fact is harmful in and of itself, just in a different way. The law needs to maintain a much closer balance between hurting people and helping people. While hurting criminals does have a deterrent factor, we do have to make sure that after we hurt them we build them back up so they don't reoffend. In the long run, skipping the "build them back up" step is more dangerous than skipping the punishment step. Our laws currently falsely assume that skipping the punishment step is the most dangerous thing to do.

koolba 10y ago
> The solution is restorative justice, where the focus is on repairing the harm rather than punishment. What's the repair/punishment for me smoking a joint on my front porch?
- zo1 10y ago
  Repair is only applicable when there is victim. The other point is that certain acts can not be meaningfully repaired/repaid within our current societal context. I.e. How do you measure the repayment or actions-required to repair a life that is taken by someone? I would argue indentured servitude is a valid way to go, but it makes people uncomfortable because they see it as slavery. Yet, keeping someone locked up in an unproductive cage, to watch them wither away is somehow "rehabilitating" them. It's not, it's punishing them, it's revenge.
  - cloverich 10y ago
    > Yet, keeping someone locked up in an unproductive cage, to watch them wither away is somehow "rehabilitating" them. I don't think most people claim its rehabilitation. I think the "rehabilitation" angle is political word play and would bet that most people who support harsh prison sentences see it (and support it) as punishment.
    - dTal 10y ago
      There's an element of doublethink, yes. But the entire system pretends to be about rehabilitation. The language is everywhere. Even prisons are "correctional facilities". It's troublesome because it makes it difficult to have a conversation about actual rehabilitation. Interesting question - why is the "political wordplay" even necessary?
  - hiddenkrypt 10y ago
    Many Prisoners are used as a source of virtually free labor already. Unfortunately this is being done as exploitation, without regard to how it may help or harm the prisoners used.
  - bluehazed 10y ago
    > I would argue indentured servitude is a valid way to go, but it makes people uncomfortable because they see it as slavery. It's just slavery with extra steps.
    - zo1 10y ago
      Extra steps? I'm not sure I follow.
      - e40 10y ago
        It's a Rick and Morty (TV show) reference. EDIT: 02x06 - The Ricks Must Be Crazy, it's a very good ep.
  - rndgermandude 10y ago
    Not just you would argue indentured servitude should be at least an option: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
  - sangnoir 10y ago
    > I would argue indentured servitude is a valid way to go, but it makes people uncomfortable because they see it as slavery I don't see any discomfort presently, even though the constitution exempts prisoners from protection against slavery.The Thirteenth Amendment, Section 1: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."[1] 1. Stolen from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2037139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2037139
- elif 10y ago
  growing a new plant to replace the one you burned.
  - koolba 10y ago
    > growing a new plant to replace the one you burned. I may just become a repeat offender.
blackbagboys 10y ago
What if someone maims me, or murders a close relative, and I feel the only way to repair the harm I've suffered is to punish the offender? "Hurting criminals" isn't just done to deter future crimes, it's done to satisfy the needs of the victims.
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  It strikes me as inherently unproductive, on a societal level, to make vengeance a policy, as it so often results in a positive feedback loop of grievances. The grievances of the punished are not recognized as legitimate, so they're frequently displaced onto others, creating more desire for punishment and eventually more victims. Admittedly, you're expressing a common sentiment. I've never been the victim of a violent crime, so I can't speak to the experience of feeling a need for satisfactory vengeance. But it seems to me to be one of the worse aspects of human nature, which we should seek to overcome through enacting laws seeking restorative justice, or at least non-vengeance based punishment systems. Unfortunately, the letter of the law has little to say about the underlying human desire for vengeance when wronged, and instead seems to often start from the axiom that satisfaction must be given. I wish this were more frequently and publicly questioned. FYI, this is an excellent book on the subject: "Inferno: An Anatomy of American Justice" by Robert Ferguson (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674728684 http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674728684)
- rndgermandude 10y ago
  Punishing such an offender does not repair the harm, the dead will not undead again and limbs will not grow back either. It's vengeance, plain and simple. Will the law and state exacting revenge make the victims feel better as a consolation prize? Probably not[1]. [1] http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/06/revenge.aspx http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/06/revenge.aspx
- jotux 10y ago
  I've never understood this as an adult. It's fine to make someone else suffer because they did it to you? What reasonable person feels better because they see someone else suffer? What kind of logic is that?

koolba 10y ago

> The solution is restorative justice, where the focus is on repairing the harm rather than punishment. What's the repair/punishment for me smoking a joint on my front porch?

zo1 10y ago
Repair is only applicable when there is victim. The other point is that certain acts can not be meaningfully repaired/repaid within our current societal context. I.e. How do you measure the repayment or actions-required to repair a life that is taken by someone? I would argue indentured servitude is a valid way to go, but it makes people uncomfortable because they see it as slavery. Yet, keeping someone locked up in an unproductive cage, to watch them wither away is somehow "rehabilitating" them. It's not, it's punishing them, it's revenge.
- cloverich 10y ago
  > Yet, keeping someone locked up in an unproductive cage, to watch them wither away is somehow "rehabilitating" them. I don't think most people claim its rehabilitation. I think the "rehabilitation" angle is political word play and would bet that most people who support harsh prison sentences see it (and support it) as punishment.
  - dTal 10y ago
    There's an element of doublethink, yes. But the entire system pretends to be about rehabilitation. The language is everywhere. Even prisons are "correctional facilities". It's troublesome because it makes it difficult to have a conversation about actual rehabilitation. Interesting question - why is the "political wordplay" even necessary?
- hiddenkrypt 10y ago
  Many Prisoners are used as a source of virtually free labor already. Unfortunately this is being done as exploitation, without regard to how it may help or harm the prisoners used.
- bluehazed 10y ago
  > I would argue indentured servitude is a valid way to go, but it makes people uncomfortable because they see it as slavery. It's just slavery with extra steps.
  - zo1 10y ago
    Extra steps? I'm not sure I follow.
    - e40 10y ago
      It's a Rick and Morty (TV show) reference. EDIT: 02x06 - The Ricks Must Be Crazy, it's a very good ep.
- rndgermandude 10y ago
  Not just you would argue indentured servitude should be at least an option: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
- sangnoir 10y ago
  > I would argue indentured servitude is a valid way to go, but it makes people uncomfortable because they see it as slavery I don't see any discomfort presently, even though the constitution exempts prisoners from protection against slavery.The Thirteenth Amendment, Section 1: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."[1] 1. Stolen from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2037139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2037139
elif 10y ago
growing a new plant to replace the one you burned.
- koolba 10y ago
  > growing a new plant to replace the one you burned. I may just become a repeat offender.

blackbagboys 10y ago

What if someone maims me, or murders a close relative, and I feel the only way to repair the harm I've suffered is to punish the offender? "Hurting criminals" isn't just done to deter future crimes, it's done to satisfy the needs of the victims.

MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
It strikes me as inherently unproductive, on a societal level, to make vengeance a policy, as it so often results in a positive feedback loop of grievances. The grievances of the punished are not recognized as legitimate, so they're frequently displaced onto others, creating more desire for punishment and eventually more victims. Admittedly, you're expressing a common sentiment. I've never been the victim of a violent crime, so I can't speak to the experience of feeling a need for satisfactory vengeance. But it seems to me to be one of the worse aspects of human nature, which we should seek to overcome through enacting laws seeking restorative justice, or at least non-vengeance based punishment systems. Unfortunately, the letter of the law has little to say about the underlying human desire for vengeance when wronged, and instead seems to often start from the axiom that satisfaction must be given. I wish this were more frequently and publicly questioned. FYI, this is an excellent book on the subject: "Inferno: An Anatomy of American Justice" by Robert Ferguson (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674728684 http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674728684)
rndgermandude 10y ago
Punishing such an offender does not repair the harm, the dead will not undead again and limbs will not grow back either. It's vengeance, plain and simple. Will the law and state exacting revenge make the victims feel better as a consolation prize? Probably not[1]. [1] http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/06/revenge.aspx http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/06/revenge.aspx
jotux 10y ago
I've never understood this as an adult. It's fine to make someone else suffer because they did it to you? What reasonable person feels better because they see someone else suffer? What kind of logic is that?