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“Sonicwall products are not returnable”
- kipdotcom 10y agoDell EqualLogic™ and EqualLogic-branded products, Dell|EMC, EMC and VCE-branded products, Dell Compellent™ and Compellent-branded products, Dell KACE™ and KACE-branded products, Dell Force10™ and Force10-branded products, PowerVault ML6000 tape libraries, PowerVault DL and DR products, Dell SonicWALL™ and SonicWALL-branded products, Dell Wyse™ and Wyse-branded products, Dell Quest™, Quest™, ScriptLogic™ and VKernel™ branded products, Dell Software branded products, Dell Data Protection | Rapid Recovery and Dell Data Protection | Rapid Recovery branded products, Dell StatSoft and StatSoft-branded products, non-Dell-branded enterprise products, enterprise software, and customized products may not be returned at any time. [http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/solutions/us-return-policy http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/solutions/us-return-...]
- degenerate 10y agoSeriously, Dell has no excuse for how ridiculously buried this information is. Let's take these terms and stick them where they actually belong, right next to all the other crap they make me agree to EVERY time I purchase something: http://i.imgur.com/MTOujSd.jpg http://i.imgur.com/MTOujSd.jpg Was that so hard, Dell? Was it?
- trentlott 10y agoBut you probably wouldn't have bought it, then! They need to get rid of stock, obviously in whatever fashion they can.
- grahamburger 10y agoWell, let's be honest - Dell has no excuse for not allowing returns on these items. That's unbelievable, tbh. One of the reasons I buy most of this kind of stuff from Amazon.
- benologist 10y agoHow is it even legal? Consumer protection laws are a thing in tons of countries specifically to stop companies exploiting people with eg, unfair refund policies... Steam/Valve recently learned that the hard way in Australia, Apple in Europe etc.
- user5994461 10y agoThe product mentioned are expensive entreprisey products, mostly sold business-to-business. The europeans laws offer little protection to companies. Consumer laws apply only when selling directly to consumers.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- consto 10y agoThis simply can't be legal in the EU, can it?
- heisenbit 10y agoIn the EU the consumer is protected to a degree. In any case from what I gather we are looking here at a B2B and not B2C transaction. In B2B land company can get away legally with other terms as it is assumed they are dealing on more equal terms.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- CamperBob2 10y agoThat's crazy. 90% of random eBay sellers take returns. I would never have expected Dell to pull shit like this.
- oh_sigh 10y agoIt may be for protection of other customers. A bad actor could order some of those devices, flash the firmware with an evil version(or somehow modify it), and then send it back to dell.
- CamperBob2 10y ago(Shrug) So send it back to the factory for reconditioning. Charge the customer a reasonable restocking fee to cover the associated costs, if it happens enough to be a problem. What? The factory can't restore the firmware to as-new condition? That's a bit of a problem in itself, isn't it?
- oh_sigh 10y agoIt was just a guess - I have no real idea why Dell wouldn't allow returns on those items. And firmware was just an example. You could also solder in a completely separate computer if you really wanted to. Then you need to open the whole thing up and do visual inspections, reflash the firmware, test it, etc. It may not be worth it for $500, or cost close enough to $500 that they just don't allow returns.
- danielweber 10y agoAs someone who spent too many years at a Sonic Wall competitor, we always completely wiped the boxes we got back.
- roflchoppa 10y agoThats why after 8 years, i have 100+ reviews, with 100% feedback. shit i should put that on a resume.
- 10y ago
- Silhouette 10y agoI sympathise, and I appreciate someone raising awareness of the situation. Perhaps the negative attention will prompt Dell to review this policy. That said, is it really normal to expect to be able to return a non-faulty product once it's shipped, or unreasonable of Dell to refuse such returns if they don't want to sell on that basis? In my country (the UK) there are consumer protection laws that include various rights to return goods purchased remotely for a short period even if they aren't defective. In principle, these are supposed to allow for not being able to inspect the actual product the way you could in person if you bought from a store. However, for better or worse, business customers do not enjoy the same legal protections as private individuals, and a lot of potentially one-sided terms that would be unlikely to stand up in a B2C context because of statutory protections seem to be routine in B2B sales.
- X-Istence 10y agoI think it's normal to ship back a non-faulty product that I realised was the wrong one... I've done it with expensive routers/switches from Cisco and SFP+'s from various vendors. Never had any issues either. Cisco even cross-shipped the gear we wanted. Although I think corporate account vs one-offs make the difference here ;-)
- dkx 10y agoUsually the same product is more expensive when buying as a consumer, presumably because of the extra protections they get.
- hackuser 10y ago> is it really normal to expect to be able to return a non-faulty product once it's shipped, or unreasonable of Dell to refuse such returns It's normal for people to make mistakes, including people who are Dell customers. Good, normal businesses accommodate their customers, try to help them succeed and build good relationships, and don't treat them like suckers, potential criminals or bad schoolchildren when something goes wrong. They don't cite terms, they find solutions. But for a business customer, there is an easy solution to this problem: Find a vendor who does want your business. Be glad it happened with a $500 order and not something more expensive; it's a cheap lesson and the sooner it happened the better. My guess is that Dell will lose more when the customer leaves and tells their friends (ignoring the HN post) than they would over one return. But that's their problem, not yours.
- celticninja 10y agoThis would be illegal in the EU. The US needs better consumer protection laws.
- danilocesar 10y agoSame in Brazil... You have 7 days to return anything you buy from the internet. For any reason.
- Noseshine 10y agoKeyword in your text: "consumer". Not sure what happens when you buy as a business customer, but at many of the extended protections are specifically for consumers. Business customers are supposed to know much better what they are getting themselves into, since a) they have to regularly be much more aware of terms and conditions and legal stuff then consumers and b) they are themselves sellers and not just buyers. At least for Germany I can point to several web pages that show that business buyers don't have those protections (German, sorry): - http://www.wirtschaftsrecht-news.de/2013/08/widerrufs-und-ruckgaberecht/ http://www.wirtschaftsrecht-news.de/2013/08/widerrufs-und-ru... (no returns for B2B or C2C) - http://www.shopbetreiber-blog.de/2007/03/22/kein-widerrufsrecht-fuer-gewerbliche-besteller/ http://www.shopbetreiber-blog.de/2007/03/22/kein-widerrufsre... (the decision of a court in a case)
- mindcrash 10y agoNope, this wouldn't be illegal in the EU. Consumer protection law is a consumer protection law -- meant for when you buy stuff as a person. If you however buy stuff as a business entity consumer law do not apply, so you are just as fucked as the person who made the pastebin. This is also why the likes of Dell and HP sell business services and these services don't come cheap (and when you don't get them and your server dies you are basically fucked.) Protip for freelancers and small businesses: While it might look really cool, don't buy IT equipment as a business (unless you want to pay extra for services guaranteeing continous operation of said equipment), but as a consumer. This means your equipment will fall under consumer law and means that (for example) when you want to return a item the store you bought it at they will have to comply.
- DanBlake 10y agoDid you buy it with a credit card? Most of them have additional protections that let you fix situations like this. Not sure if it applies to returns, but for instance I know you get a guaranteed extra warranty with anything you buy with your amex past the manufacturers, etc..
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- lsiunsuex 10y agoI'm considering this - but I used the boss's debit card so I'm not sure it'll work. Debit cards being "same as cash" in the USA, not sure those terms protect wrongful purchases. But - can't hurt to try.
- davidu 10y agoAs an aside, you should never use a debit card online, ever, ever, ever. Candidly, you should never use it for anything other than taking money out of an ATM.
- pritambaral 10y agoWhy?
- brianwawok 10y agoCredit card gets stolen - I call bank, they remove charge, and I don't pay until matter is resolved. Debit card gets stolen - All my money is taken out of my bank. I now cannot pay my rent or buy groceries. I tell bank, and they start an investigation. Maybe in 90 days I get my money back. Never ever use a debit online. In fact, don't use in person. Debit cards are fine for ATM to get cash, for anything else use CC. (Plus CC gives you 2% cash back if you shop wise, that is huge).
- grahamburger 10y ago
- digitera 10y agoRefuse to accept delivery on the second order, this will legally force Dell to refund. If Dell still refuses to refund, refute the charges with your card company, they are legally required to chargeback if you refused delivery; they will likely rule in your favor on the first order as well if you provide detailed documentation.
- eli 10y agoYou may be able to get some level of relief from your credit card. My American Express card comes with the following benefit for free: "If you try to return an eligible item within 90 days from the date of purchase and the merchant won't take it back, American Express may refund the full purchase price (excluding shipping and handling), up to $300 per item, up to a maximum of $1,000 per calendar year per Card account, if you purchased it entirely with your eligible American Express® Card. Please read important exclusions and restrictions.‡"
- moepstar 10y agoNot having an American Express Card and not having read their terms... But: have you read the "important exclusions and restrictions"? Also, the buyer would still be out of around 200$ plus shipping even if he'd be refunded by Amex...
- eli 10y agoI've successfully used it, so I know it's a real benefit. One notable exclusion is software (presumably because you could have copied it), hardware should be fine. But yeah, it's only $300. Perhaps the fancy AmEx cards have a more robust benefit. It's pretty nice for "free" though.
- admax88q 10y ago> an eligible item
- eli 10y agoThe exclusions seem very reasonable to me (example: no living animals or plants, no rare coins) Full terms are here https://web.aexp-static.com/us/content/pdf/card-benefits/PlatinumCardfromAmericanExpress/Return-Protection.pdf https://web.aexp-static.com/us/content/pdf/card-benefits/Pla...
- gnu8 10y agoI bet the EULA for the firewall's software says you can return it for a full refund if you don't agree to its terms.
- k_sze 10y agoIt's not just bad business practice. At the company I work at, our anecdotal experience with Sonicwall products has just been shitty. You buy a router and you still need to pay extra to activate advanced features. What a shitty product. In contrast, we bought a whole bunch of Mikrotik's RouterBoards, they're really inexpensive and come with really powerful features that you don't need to pay extra for. We're starting to deploy them everywhere and we'll eventually phase out the shitty Sonicwall.
- hrrsn 10y agoWhile I don't have experience with Mikrotik, I've been really happy with the Ubiquiti gear I've installed.
- Alupis 10y agoUbiquiti and Mikrotiks are a good match for each other. I've no experience with Ubiquiti's routing equipment, but their wireless devices (big backhaul dishes all the way down to the small office AP's) are fantastic. Backed by a Mikrotik, you have a very powerful and flexible package for a fraction of the cost of the competitors. Many WISP's use Ubiquiti wiresless equipment paired with Mikrotik's on the back end.
- hrrsn 10y agoWe use UniFi APs, Unifi Video and EdgeRouters/EdgeSwitches across all of our locations. Mikrotik was next on the list of things to check out, but in the 18 months since we've deployed them we haven't had a single issue.
- Alupis 10y agoYep, they make great hardware. I recommend attending one of their conferences if you ever get the chance. In the US, they usually have one annually in Las Vegas[1] (a lot of fun!, and they have one coming up soon in October). They also do conferences around the world[2]. It's been a few years since I attended one, but they used to (and might still) give out free products at the conferences. Usually it was a free sample of one of their new products. For example, I got an original UniFi device when they launched that product line. Installed it at home (way overkill for a small house!), and it's still working perfectly all these years later (has to be close to 5-6 years). Ubiquiti's conferences are a lot less expensive than the Mikrotik MUM's (conferences), although Mikrotik's offer a lot of training and what-not as well as normal conference talks. [1] http://community.ubnt.com/t5/Ubiquiti-Events-and-Conferences/Ubiquiti-World-Conference-NEXT-Announced-Oct-12th-Las-Vegas/td-p/1346966 http://community.ubnt.com/t5/Ubiquiti-Events-and-Conferences... [2] http://community.ubnt.com/t5/Ubiquiti-Events-and-Conferences/Ubiquiti-World-Conferences-in-Europe-Russia/td-p/1633410 http://community.ubnt.com/t5/Ubiquiti-Events-and-Conferences...
- op00to 10y agoThis is why, if you're a small company unable to have a direct, strategic, named Dell sales relationship, you buy from Dell through a reseller. ALWAYS USE A RESELLER. The reseller has the strategic relationship, they'll go to bat for you, and you don't have to mess around on twitter trying to get your $500 back.
- MrTonyD 10y agoOr just don't buy Dell. Why should I have to examine every supplier's fine print to figure out whether I need to go through a reseller?
- edkennedy 10y agoThe idea is you use a reseller for all your products, they manage the relationship with the manufacturer or publisher and work to get you the best price/service. If you have doubts about using a "middle man" keep them honest with a 2nd or 3rd quote, sometimes direct every now and then. But working with one rep for all your products can be a huge boon to doing business in savings of money and time. Disclaimer: I work for a VAR
- Kadin 10y agoWhich VAR do your work for or which would you recommend? I wouldn't know who to work with to buy Dell, aside from typing "dell.com" and buying it. I thought that was their whole business model -- direct sales, no inventory, JIT shipping and the like.
- tracker1 10y agoA company I used to work for bought a huge (for the time) NAS full of drives... when one of the drives failed they (IBM) wouldn't send a replacement, as it was "discontinued"... if it weren't for the VAR, they never would have gotten the drive replaced... something like the following (3-way call). IBM: "Well, we're IBM and you're $300k annual spending wouldn't be a huge loss" VAR: "Well, this is Bill from VAR, and we do over $40M in purchases a year, and this will be very enlightening in future purchase recommendations." IBM: "Uhhh... hold on for a moment please..."
- ramblenode 10y agoUpsetting a business customer by not refunding a $500 purchase isn't worth it. I had a longer comment attempting to rationalize this policy, but deleted it and gave up because there's just no way this is good for business.
- SaveClyde 10y agoSonicwall is now owned by Francisco Partners. Dell sold SonicWall as part of the divestiture efforts.
- l0c0b0x 10y agoOh wow, wasn't aware of that.
- thrillgore 10y agoIt's good to see that Dell/SonicWall really are committed to driving customers away.
- threepipeproblm 10y agoGood luck with this in Maine... I believe Maine has a 30 day implied warranty law that makes all products returnable, with a few exceptional categories.
- lambenttelos 10y agoI'm not exactly sure why people are so upset about this. It was a mistake made by the customer on a product that could be a security nightmare for somebody else if it was tampered with. If they didn't have this policy and I was a state sponsored intelligence agency I would be buying, tampering, and returning as many as I could.
- joosters 10y agoThanks to Snowden, we know that intelligence agencies already intercept shipments, they have no need to buy & return stuff. Plus, just about every device with a computer/storage inside could in theory be tampered with. So, your argument seems to imply that a 'no return' policy should be enforced on most equipment. That's just insane.
- KaiserPro 10y agoi'm so glad that in the UK we have distance selling rules which means anything sold "mail order" can be returned within 14 days.
- ams6110 10y agoSend it back, with documentation, and do a chargeback on the card used to purchase it. It will be very difficult to contest a chargeback for something you returned.
- calvano915 10y agoA big reason to buy on a credit card. I would initiate a chargeback and Dell will return the money whether they want the router back or not. I'm not advocating to carry a balance when using credit. I pay mine off every month reaping the benefits without paying any interest.
- Scottn1 10y agoI can relate to Dell shady tactics and deceit. I too was a big fan of Dell products and recommended them plenty over the many years. Black Friday 2015 I got wind of Dell having a great deal on Xbox "bundle". I waited all day for the timing to be right so I could order it when it went live. When it finally arrived at my house, I was missing several items that were part of the "bundle" I paid for. I was Missing the headset as well as the extra controller and free game they advertised. Calling their support was an exercise in patience as it turned into a debate about what I ordered. Dell had purposely sent the included receipt with tactically chosen wording that I had just ordered a normal Xbox bundle they always sold. A classic bait-n-switch. I had an argument with the support person about that being wrong yet they insisted, DESPITE my time/date of order showing to purposely take advantage of the BF deal and a screen shot of my order. They still fought it as the included receipt was their trump card. So basically all a company has to do is fix the sent receipt and change the order wording and there is no defense for being taken advantage of? I was livid. A quick search of the net found out I wasn't alone in this bat/switch Xbox bundle BF deal. Eventually they gave in to the headset and sent me a Dell gift card for the amount to order a headset through them. This was now further proof I had ordered a SPECIAL BF deal as they admitted it by comping the headset. But they still would not budge on the extra controller or the free game. I decided to try and stick it to them instead for their deceptive tactics and issued a complaint with my credit card for not getting what I paid for. I filed for full amount of purchase of the BF deal and explained what happened to my CC company. They mentioned they had similar complaint already about same thing for someone else. So I did a chargeback. Not intending to get free Xbox but rather try to scare Dell to just make good. Months went by and I find out Dell fought it, as expected. Dell now was offering me a full refund and to send everything back. I was ready to do just that and buy from elsewhere now BUT, get this, Dell said I had to pay for return shipping! So now instead of getting everything I paid for, they now expect me to be OUT $30 to ship it back with now NOTHING to show for. So that is where it ended. I gave up. I wasn't getting the advertised controller or free game and just wasn't going to be -$30 at this point for nothing than to prove a point. So I kept the Xbox, paid for it and just accepted Dell has now become a piece of shit company. And I will NEVER buy or recommend to anyone, including many clients, Dell or anything the sell again.
- xvolter 10y agoThis is irrelevant if you use a proper business account like American Express. You have return protection, are able to return anything within 90 days, if ymthe merchant won't accept it then the payment processor does a charge back and returns your money.
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