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Yes, my complaint is that you are highjacking an article on species differentiation in giraffes to talk about purported human subspecies. No, we emphatically d
by dalke 10y ago
Yes, my complaint is that you are highjacking an article on species differentiation in giraffes to talk about purported human subspecies.
No, we emphatically do not have that high of a genetic difference. Quite the opposite. The diversity in human genetics is relatively small compared to other species. For example, quoting http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v27/n2/full/ng0201_155.html http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v27/n2/full/ng0201_155.html :
> The extent of DNA sequence variation of chimpanzees is several-fold greater than that of humans[1]. It is unclear, however, if humans or chimpanzees are exceptional among primates in having low and high amounts of DNA sequence diversity, respectively. To address this, we have determined approximately 10,000 bp of noncoding DNA sequences at Xq13.3 (which has been extensively studied in both humans and chimpanzees[1, 2]) from 10 western lowland gorillas (Gorilla gorilla gorilla) and 1 mountain gorilla (Gorilla gorilla beringei; that is, from 2 of the 3 currently recognized gorilla subspecies[3]), as well as 8 Bornean (Pongo pygmaeus pygmaeus) and 6 Sumatran (Pongo pygmaeus abelii) orang-utans, representing both currently recognized orang-utan subspecies[4]. We show that humans differ from the great apes in having a low level of genetic variation and a signal of population expansion.
I'll repeat that last line for emphasis: "humans differ from the great apes in having a low level of genetic variation"
The paper I linked to previously specifically compares the differences in DNA between chimpanzee subspecies to any putative human subspecies.
> We know that there is human geographical variation, but does this infraspecific diversity reach a threshold that merits the designation 'subspecies', as is true with chimpanzees[14]? ...
> The within- to between-group variation is very high for genetic polymorphisms (approx85%; refs. 16,17). This means that individuals from one 'race' may be overall more similar to individuals in one of the other 'races' than to other individuals in the same 'race'. This observation is perhaps insufficient[18], although it still is convincing because it illustrates the lack of a boundary. Coalescence times[19, 20] calculated from various genes suggest that the differentiation of modern humans began in Africa in populations whose morphological traits are unknown; it cannot be assumed from an evolutionary perspective that the traits used to define 'races' emerged simultaneously with this divergence[15]. There was no demonstrable 'racial' divergence. ...
> Race' is a legitimate taxonomic concept that works for chimpanzees but does not apply to humans (at this time). The nonexistence of 'races' or subspecies in modern humans does not preclude substantial genetic variation that may be localized to regions or populations.
DNA doesn't lie. Humans lie, or are mistaken. Please demonstrate that you are not mistaken, and tell us the source of your statement that "We have greater genetic difference between races than ANY example of subspecies in existence".
What are the two most distinct human subspecies, and what is their level of DNA similarity? How does that compare to the difference in chimp subspecies?
- DougWebb 10y agoIf human races (which clearly exist) are not genetically distinct enough to be considered subspecies, how about the inverse? Can you point out examples of animal species/subspecies that have races? Are different dog breeds the equivalent of human races, for example?
- danieltillett 10y agoMany animal species have races (or sub-species). Dogs breeds are not generally considered as different species despite it being impossible for many to interbreed (think chihuahuas and Great Danes). Isn't biology wonderful :)
- dalke 10y agoIn the post you replied to I pointed out gorilla (with three subspecies, two of which are Gorilla gorilla gorilla and Gorilla gorilla beringei) and orang-utans (with Pongo pygmaeus pygmaeus and Pongo pygmaeus abelii) as two species with recognized subspecies. I also earlier mentioned chimpanzees as a species with multiple subspecies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_chimpanzee#Taxonomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_chimpanzee#Taxonomy says there are four. This uses the taxonomic definition of race, which http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1455.html http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1455.html says "Although 'race' and subspecies are usually treated as equivalent, some zoological taxonomists reserve the word 'race' for local breeding populations, with subspecies being geographical collections of populations that are similar or the same in the defining traits." That same article is careful to point out that the taxonomical definition is different from the sociopolitical, "socially constructed" definitions used by humans when talking about themselves. Concerning dogs, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog#Taxonomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog#Taxonomy points out that it's unresolved if domesticated animals should be list as a subspecies, so that dogs are "Canis lupus familiaris", or if they are their own species, as in "Canis familiaris". In either case, dog breeds are "artificial variants created by ... selective breeding", from http://vertebrates.si.edu/msw/mswCFApp/msw/taxon_browser.cfm?msw_id=11374&CFID=12634444&CFTOKEN=cc1f55b96a5e34a-FC9CD852-C674-9147-2845FC003C9BEC28&jsessionid=28306b88028b8491c0804d7c347a623b6e31 http://vertebrates.si.edu/msw/mswCFApp/msw/taxon_browser.cfm... . The term "variety" has no formal definition in mammalian taxonomy. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(botany)#Other_nomenclature_uses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(botany)#Other_nomencl... .