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I am afraid you are still not getting what I've been trying to explain. There might exist completely different perspectives and things can work differently for

I am afraid you are still not getting what I've been trying to explain. There might exist completely different perspectives and things can work differently for different people, different relationships, etc. Not spending a lot of time with your family doesn't necessarily mean having bad relationship or having troubles with your relatives. Moreover, if your partners accept what you do and how it affects them (sometimes maybe in an unfortunate way), it actually can make your relationships much stronger. What will happen with the next generations - no one knows. I think it's a bit irrelevant and idealistic. I live my own life. I want to make the best out of it. For myself, for my family, and for all the other people. What will happen after my life ends won't really matter for me (I am an atheist/agnostic). I am not saying we shouldn't invest our resources in the next generations, but instead of hoping on our kids and putting all the burden on them, I firmly believe we first should do whatever we can ourselves. I am afraid your examples actually play against you. Steve Jobs (just off the top of my head) completely abandoned his family and built one of the greatest company of all times. Please just try to get a bit out of your personal mindset and try to think and look at these things from a different angle. If something seems to be bad or wrong for you doesn't really mean that it's bad or wrong for everybody.

kafkaesq 10y ago
Steve Jobs (just off the top of my head) completely abandoned his family and built one of the greatest company of all times. Which he later came to regret, most profoundly: Years later, after Jobs left Apple, he acknowledged Lisa and attempted to reconcile with her. Chrisann Brennan wrote that "he apologized many times over for his behavior" to her and Lisa and "said that he never took responsibility when he should have, and that he was sorry."[2]† In general, you may want to re-visit the implicit principle on which you're operating: namely "Someone incredibly famous and widely admired for their achievements did highly contemptible thing X, that was plainly and unnecessarily hurtful to other people; therefore, it's OK if I do it." As if it was ever necessary for Jobs to have turned his boak on his family in the flagrantly callous manner that he did in order for us to have the shiny gizmos that we hold in our hands today, in the first place. If anything, all it amounted to was a distraction and impediment towards those ends. † https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Brennan-Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Brennan-Jobs
- csbubbles 10y ago
  I am not operating on that principle, actually. And I don't recommend anyone to follow it. I am not sure why you have come to this conclusion. My point was that saying that "all the successful people got successful because their personal things mattered for them more that their business" doesn't seem to be correct, and I gave the example with Steve Jobs. I don't really admire him, I never met him, and had no idea what kind of a person he was. I honestly just don't care because it doesn't matter. The key point I was trying to explain to you guys is that people are different, some of them think and behave differently, some of them may have different values and priorities. But we all live our own lives and make our own choices clearly understanding what we do. So, you just can expect from people around to live different lives with different view and goals (regarding all the things - business, families, food, hobbies, education, etc.). And that's okay.
cookiecaper 10y ago
First, I want to commend you for remaining civil and calm on this very personal topic and recognizing that I'm not trying to attack your fundamental character. That does show that you have a lot of restraint and that you are good at processing the data before you critically and carefully. Most people aren't able to keep it together after a reply like mine. I understand that you don't have to spend "a lot of" time with your family to have a good relationship with them. One of the most important roles to play in a family is that of breadwinner, which necessarily means that you will have to spend a lot of time out winning the bread. Though this prevents you from spending time with your family, it's an act of love for and in behalf of your family, and it's a good thing to do. So it's not just about not spending "a lot of" time with them. You should spend some time with them, and they should be higher priority than a business venture. It is fine that you and your wife have an understanding, but I think your phraseology may be cockeyed. A family should never be second-best. It is always worth the time. When you say your family is less important, it evokes images of letting your wife die alone in the ER after an accident so that you can keep making cold calls. Your family should be top priority, which doesn't mean you have to spend every waking hour physically with them -- it just means everything you do should be first and foremost in their service. That includes commercial endeavors, but is not limited to them. Balance must be achieved. I finished reading Ed Catmull's Creativity Inc. last night. The book ends with an afterword in which Catmull, who spent a quarter-century working closely with Steve Jobs at Pixar, discusses the unfair treatment that Steve receives in the media. He lamented that everyone wants to immortalize Steve in his early, immature days, the days when he was a hothead and would behave questionably. That's the Steve we always hear about, but according to Catmull, Steve matured hugely between the start of their relationship and his death. Catmull explicitly ascribes that maturity, the maturity that allowed him to do his best work and revitalize Apple, to Steve's family. Once he started caring about his family and paying more attention to his 3 kids, they helped him learn how to be a better leader, a better manager. How to be kinder and more mindful. Even tech's best-known example of a deadbeat dad wasn't able to achieve his dreams until his family issues were fixed. Remember, despite young Steve's obvious talent and vision, he was forced out because he was brash and off-balance. After 15 years of additional maturity and growth, which, again, Catmull attributes directly to Steve's improved relationships with his wife and children, he was able to come back to Apple and finally make the lasting impact he envisioned. After finishing Creativity, Inc. I went to Pixar's web site and clicked around. The only video I watched was from director Brad Bird. He was talking about how hard it is to be a director and how there are many conflicting demands. And he said, "I'm a much better director since having kids; they teach you how to stay calm". First and only video I watched. Not searching it out in any way. No indication that children would be mentioned before I clicked. And here again, just in one night, the second substantial evidence I encountered that caring for children makes workers better. You have to get this right. Whatever you think you're going to do in the commercial world, it can't be second fiddle to your deep-seated psychological and biological needs for family, belonging, and so forth. I understand you are probably going to say that some people just don't need that kind of thing, to which I say, baloney. Surely some people end up not having that kind of thing, but the evidence is clear: a healthy family life (which includes prioritizing family as the 1st priority) makes workers better, not worse. Family is a pre-requisite to doing one's best work, not an afterthought. Companies come and go. Maybe you'll get sued into bankruptcy, or maybe you won't (as a music startup, you probably will). Your family is permanent. It is static. It is stable. The economy can't change it. What you do or don't do is going to affect your wife and your children not only for the rest of their natural lives, but for the lives of tens of thousands of their descendants over the next few hundred years. You need to get your head on right and acknowledge that fame and accreditation are fleeting and stupid, and they don't make a real impact. They can't outdo biology. Your family needs to come first.

kafkaesq 10y ago

Steve Jobs (just off the top of my head) completely abandoned his family and built one of the greatest company of all times. Which he later came to regret, most profoundly: Years later, after Jobs left Apple, he acknowledged Lisa and attempted to reconcile with her. Chrisann Brennan wrote that "he apologized many times over for his behavior" to her and Lisa and "said that he never took responsibility when he should have, and that he was sorry."[2]† In general, you may want to re-visit the implicit principle on which you're operating: namely "Someone incredibly famous and widely admired for their achievements did highly contemptible thing X, that was plainly and unnecessarily hurtful to other people; therefore, it's OK if I do it." As if it was ever necessary for Jobs to have turned his boak on his family in the flagrantly callous manner that he did in order for us to have the shiny gizmos that we hold in our hands today, in the first place. If anything, all it amounted to was a distraction and impediment towards those ends. † https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Brennan-Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Brennan-Jobs

csbubbles 10y ago
I am not operating on that principle, actually. And I don't recommend anyone to follow it. I am not sure why you have come to this conclusion. My point was that saying that "all the successful people got successful because their personal things mattered for them more that their business" doesn't seem to be correct, and I gave the example with Steve Jobs. I don't really admire him, I never met him, and had no idea what kind of a person he was. I honestly just don't care because it doesn't matter. The key point I was trying to explain to you guys is that people are different, some of them think and behave differently, some of them may have different values and priorities. But we all live our own lives and make our own choices clearly understanding what we do. So, you just can expect from people around to live different lives with different view and goals (regarding all the things - business, families, food, hobbies, education, etc.). And that's okay.

cookiecaper 10y ago

First, I want to commend you for remaining civil and calm on this very personal topic and recognizing that I'm not trying to attack your fundamental character. That does show that you have a lot of restraint and that you are good at processing the data before you critically and carefully. Most people aren't able to keep it together after a reply like mine. I understand that you don't have to spend "a lot of" time with your family to have a good relationship with them. One of the most important roles to play in a family is that of breadwinner, which necessarily means that you will have to spend a lot of time out winning the bread. Though this prevents you from spending time with your family, it's an act of love for and in behalf of your family, and it's a good thing to do. So it's not just about not spending "a lot of" time with them. You should spend some time with them, and they should be higher priority than a business venture. It is fine that you and your wife have an understanding, but I think your phraseology may be cockeyed. A family should never be second-best. It is always worth the time. When you say your family is less important, it evokes images of letting your wife die alone in the ER after an accident so that you can keep making cold calls. Your family should be top priority, which doesn't mean you have to spend every waking hour physically with them -- it just means everything you do should be first and foremost in their service. That includes commercial endeavors, but is not limited to them. Balance must be achieved. I finished reading Ed Catmull's Creativity Inc. last night. The book ends with an afterword in which Catmull, who spent a quarter-century working closely with Steve Jobs at Pixar, discusses the unfair treatment that Steve receives in the media. He lamented that everyone wants to immortalize Steve in his early, immature days, the days when he was a hothead and would behave questionably. That's the Steve we always hear about, but according to Catmull, Steve matured hugely between the start of their relationship and his death. Catmull explicitly ascribes that maturity, the maturity that allowed him to do his best work and revitalize Apple, to Steve's family. Once he started caring about his family and paying more attention to his 3 kids, they helped him learn how to be a better leader, a better manager. How to be kinder and more mindful. Even tech's best-known example of a deadbeat dad wasn't able to achieve his dreams until his family issues were fixed. Remember, despite young Steve's obvious talent and vision, he was forced out because he was brash and off-balance. After 15 years of additional maturity and growth, which, again, Catmull attributes directly to Steve's improved relationships with his wife and children, he was able to come back to Apple and finally make the lasting impact he envisioned. After finishing Creativity, Inc. I went to Pixar's web site and clicked around. The only video I watched was from director Brad Bird. He was talking about how hard it is to be a director and how there are many conflicting demands. And he said, "I'm a much better director since having kids; they teach you how to stay calm". First and only video I watched. Not searching it out in any way. No indication that children would be mentioned before I clicked. And here again, just in one night, the second substantial evidence I encountered that caring for children makes workers better. You have to get this right. Whatever you think you're going to do in the commercial world, it can't be second fiddle to your deep-seated psychological and biological needs for family, belonging, and so forth. I understand you are probably going to say that some people just don't need that kind of thing, to which I say, baloney. Surely some people end up not having that kind of thing, but the evidence is clear: a healthy family life (which includes prioritizing family as the 1st priority) makes workers better, not worse. Family is a pre-requisite to doing one's best work, not an afterthought. Companies come and go. Maybe you'll get sued into bankruptcy, or maybe you won't (as a music startup, you probably will). Your family is permanent. It is static. It is stable. The economy can't change it. What you do or don't do is going to affect your wife and your children not only for the rest of their natural lives, but for the lives of tens of thousands of their descendants over the next few hundred years. You need to get your head on right and acknowledge that fame and accreditation are fleeting and stupid, and they don't make a real impact. They can't outdo biology. Your family needs to come first.