7 ms·

Meanwhile in tech being an introvert is lumped together with "poor social skills" and frowned upon in the name of diversity. I've actually heard conference spe

by pluma 10y ago

Meanwhile in tech being an introvert is lumped together with "poor social skills" and frowned upon in the name of diversity. I've actually heard conference speakers call out behaviours as toxic that are basically the defining character traits of introverts (not to mention people in the autism spectrum). Note that I'm not even talking about the shouty-sweary-abrasive behaviour people like Torvalds are being derided for but simply preferring to work alone rather than in a team.

anexprogrammer 10y ago
Yes, but isn't that because it's the more extreme extroverts, who've risen to the speaking and managerial roles, doing the lumping? There's a big difference between being relatively quiet and lacking social skills. Unless you look at from the personality type that needs to fill every silence with any old rubbish.
arpa 10y ago
Being an introvert doesn't mean you don't have to have social skills. It just means that it's harder, more exhausting and basically you need time to recharge via some "me time". Of course, it's just my personal opinion and experience. As an introvert, i dislike crowds, big events, dancing and singing; It's challenging, but very beneficial to invest some of my energy into "being social". If you can learn ${lang}, you can learn to identify your own feelings. Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > If you can learn ${lang}, you can learn to identify your own feelings. Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze. Believe me: I think I know my feelings pretty well. But I also claim that they are often so much different from the feelings other people have that this does not help me to empathize. Just to give one example: How is the feeling called that you feel when you read and understand beautiful mathematical proofs? I have not found a name for this feeling in any psychology book that I have read. On the other hand grief (in the sense of the feeling that people feel when someone near dies; I hope this is the intended translation of the German word "Trauer" - I'm no English native speaker) is a feeling that I only know from literature and watching people - I can confidently say that I never felt such a feeling myself. Back to topic: I believe the step from "knowing your own feelings" to "empathy" assumes that your feelings are somehow related to the feelings other people feel. I think this bold assumption does not hold very strongly for me. Believe me: If I act on this assumption, chaos will happen. On the other hand if I apply, say, some maximum-likelihood estimation (to use a word from statistics, don't interpret the word "maximum-likelihood" too literally) on how another person might feel (which is often quite the opposite to how I feel and completely against my instincts and I would never like to be treated this way), at least less chaos will happen.
  - efaref 10y ago
    > How is the feeling called that you feel when you read and understand beautiful mathematical proofs? I would call that "awe".
  - mykelyk 10y ago
    Epiphany, maybe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling)
  - hawski 10y ago
    I think that the feelings are probably almost the same, but they are caused by different stimuli. I would describe a feeling when you read and understand beautiful mathematical proofs as bliss or relief (when it was hard before everything unfolds). Dopamine kick? It is just that most people don't get satisfaction from such things.
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      It might be nitpicking (and I'm not a native English speaker so in English the words might have some connotations that I'm not aware of), but here is my view why the suggested words in my opinion don't fit the feeling. > bliss It's not about happiness - the world is still bad - but about deep understanding. >awe It's not that I'm intimidated by it - it's just the feeling of having understood something really deep > epiphany it comes near, but epiphany is (as far as I understand it) the feeling of the sudden realization (which is different), but I talk the feeling that you have afterwards. While in panel 2 of > https://xkcd.com/230/ https://xkcd.com/230/ the feeling is clearly "epiphany" the later panels transport a different feeling (a much less "striking" one) - the latter is the feeling I mean. > It is just that most people don't get satisfaction from such things. But they might get the same feeling from other stimuli. The "elegant math proof" feeling was just the description of a feeling that at leas some HN readers seem to be able to empathize with - I also had much stranger feelings under meditation (that I never had in "ordinary" life) that are even much harder to describe (and I only had them one or two times - so my descriptions might even not be very accurate).
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  "Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze." That's a dangerous line of thinking. It implies that people with a lack of social skills lack empathy.
  - arpa 10y ago
    i've had experiences that seem to imply that if one does not bother to get social skills, one also lacks in empathy and just shrugs everything off as “it's your problem, not mine that you dislike that i said your dog is fugly, and i have nothing to apologise for”. sure, the plural of anecdote is not data, but, as i've mentioned, personal experience only...
- wott 10y ago
  The so-called "social" "skills" that a lot of people praise in these circles and in business environment are the opposite of empathy.
- coldpie 10y ago
  > If you can learn ${lang}, you can learn to identify your own feelings. Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze. Eh, you're assuming everyone feels the same way about everything. I hate it when people talk about my clothes or my looks. It makes me really self-conscious and embarrassed, even if it's a compliment. So in an effort to practice "the golden rule," I don't talk about others' clothing and looks. Turns out other people get offended when no one comments on a new haircut or whatever. Knowing my own feelings actually ended up as the opposite of empathy.
  - noobiemcfoob 10y ago
    Jesus, this has hit me in the butt so often in life. Practicing the Golden Rule apparently doesn't work so well when you're eccentric. /Why are you upset I don't just walk into your house!?
  - arpa 10y ago
    the feelings we experience are the same, the triggers, of course, differ. What i mean is that in order to understand why is something happening, you need to understand what is happening. That being said, i'm no guru. It's only my personal experience.
  - logfromblammo 10y ago
    I hate getting compliments, period. Excessive praise makes me feel uncomfortable. In Parks and Recreation, Ron Swanson gives exactly the sort of compliments I would be comfortable with: "Your work product is often adequate.", "Sharing a workspace with you is not entirely unpleasant.", "I don't dread seeing your face entering my office.", "You remind me of a 16 oz. porterhouse." It makes me a bit sad that they were perceived as jokes.
    - mjevans 10y ago
      I think the last one was.
  - wpietri 10y ago
    > Eh, you're assuming everyone feels the same way about everything. I don't believe that's the case; I think you're just early on in the process arpa describes. For me, part of really coming to know my own feelings was understanding the feeling very separately from the circumstances that trigger it. With that separation in hand, it was much easier to develop deeper empathy. I would perceive other people's emotions and then work on reverse-engineering their very different triggers and preferences. And, of course, reverse-engineering how I ended up with the particular triggers and preferences I had myself. For anybody eager to pursue that route, the two things I recommend are a meditation practice and seeing a therapist.
rimantas 10y ago
In the book "Quiet" I've learned that there was actually a policy in top US universities to prefer extrovert candidates to maybe better academically, but introverts.
aethertron 10y ago
>I've actually heard conference speakers call out behaviours as toxic that are basically the defining character traits of introverts Which behaviours? I'd be interested in hearing specifics. Maybe cite the conference speakers too (assuming these were public statements)? Who has condemned a preference to work alone as 'toxic'?
- pluma 10y ago
  The specific talk I was thinking of wasn't recorded and I don't engage in naming-and-shaming but let's just say they're fairly active in certain groups aiming to bring more diversity to certain programming communities and making the community more welcoming to newcomers. I've heard similar lines of thought from other people in the same circles before, though.
- zebraflask 10y ago
  I'm curious, too. I've sometimes had similar, but vague, thoughts that "introversion" can sometimes be used as a mask for really just being a very unpleasant person.

by pluma 10y ago

anexprogrammer 10y ago

Yes, but isn't that because it's the more extreme extroverts, who've risen to the speaking and managerial roles, doing the lumping? There's a big difference between being relatively quiet and lacking social skills. Unless you look at from the personality type that needs to fill every silence with any old rubbish.

arpa 10y ago

Being an introvert doesn't mean you don't have to have social skills. It just means that it's harder, more exhausting and basically you need time to recharge via some "me time". Of course, it's just my personal opinion and experience. As an introvert, i dislike crowds, big events, dancing and singing; It's challenging, but very beneficial to invest some of my energy into "being social". If you can learn ${lang}, you can learn to identify your own feelings. Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze.

wolfgke 10y ago
> If you can learn ${lang}, you can learn to identify your own feelings. Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze. Believe me: I think I know my feelings pretty well. But I also claim that they are often so much different from the feelings other people have that this does not help me to empathize. Just to give one example: How is the feeling called that you feel when you read and understand beautiful mathematical proofs? I have not found a name for this feeling in any psychology book that I have read. On the other hand grief (in the sense of the feeling that people feel when someone near dies; I hope this is the intended translation of the German word "Trauer" - I'm no English native speaker) is a feeling that I only know from literature and watching people - I can confidently say that I never felt such a feeling myself. Back to topic: I believe the step from "knowing your own feelings" to "empathy" assumes that your feelings are somehow related to the feelings other people feel. I think this bold assumption does not hold very strongly for me. Believe me: If I act on this assumption, chaos will happen. On the other hand if I apply, say, some maximum-likelihood estimation (to use a word from statistics, don't interpret the word "maximum-likelihood" too literally) on how another person might feel (which is often quite the opposite to how I feel and completely against my instincts and I would never like to be treated this way), at least less chaos will happen.
- efaref 10y ago
  > How is the feeling called that you feel when you read and understand beautiful mathematical proofs? I would call that "awe".
- mykelyk 10y ago
  Epiphany, maybe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling)
- hawski 10y ago
  I think that the feelings are probably almost the same, but they are caused by different stimuli. I would describe a feeling when you read and understand beautiful mathematical proofs as bliss or relief (when it was hard before everything unfolds). Dopamine kick? It is just that most people don't get satisfaction from such things.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    It might be nitpicking (and I'm not a native English speaker so in English the words might have some connotations that I'm not aware of), but here is my view why the suggested words in my opinion don't fit the feeling. > bliss It's not about happiness - the world is still bad - but about deep understanding. >awe It's not that I'm intimidated by it - it's just the feeling of having understood something really deep > epiphany it comes near, but epiphany is (as far as I understand it) the feeling of the sudden realization (which is different), but I talk the feeling that you have afterwards. While in panel 2 of > https://xkcd.com/230/ https://xkcd.com/230/ the feeling is clearly "epiphany" the later panels transport a different feeling (a much less "striking" one) - the latter is the feeling I mean. > It is just that most people don't get satisfaction from such things. But they might get the same feeling from other stimuli. The "elegant math proof" feeling was just the description of a feeling that at leas some HN readers seem to be able to empathize with - I also had much stranger feelings under meditation (that I never had in "ordinary" life) that are even much harder to describe (and I only had them one or two times - so my descriptions might even not be very accurate).
maxxxxx 10y ago
"Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze." That's a dangerous line of thinking. It implies that people with a lack of social skills lack empathy.
- arpa 10y ago
  i've had experiences that seem to imply that if one does not bother to get social skills, one also lacks in empathy and just shrugs everything off as “it's your problem, not mine that you dislike that i said your dog is fugly, and i have nothing to apologise for”. sure, the plural of anecdote is not data, but, as i've mentioned, personal experience only...
wott 10y ago
The so-called "social" "skills" that a lot of people praise in these circles and in business environment are the opposite of empathy.
coldpie 10y ago
> If you can learn ${lang}, you can learn to identify your own feelings. Once you know your own feelings, you can learn empathy. Once you learn empathy, social skills is a breeze. Eh, you're assuming everyone feels the same way about everything. I hate it when people talk about my clothes or my looks. It makes me really self-conscious and embarrassed, even if it's a compliment. So in an effort to practice "the golden rule," I don't talk about others' clothing and looks. Turns out other people get offended when no one comments on a new haircut or whatever. Knowing my own feelings actually ended up as the opposite of empathy.
- noobiemcfoob 10y ago
  Jesus, this has hit me in the butt so often in life. Practicing the Golden Rule apparently doesn't work so well when you're eccentric. /Why are you upset I don't just walk into your house!?
- arpa 10y ago
  the feelings we experience are the same, the triggers, of course, differ. What i mean is that in order to understand why is something happening, you need to understand what is happening. That being said, i'm no guru. It's only my personal experience.
- logfromblammo 10y ago
  I hate getting compliments, period. Excessive praise makes me feel uncomfortable. In Parks and Recreation, Ron Swanson gives exactly the sort of compliments I would be comfortable with: "Your work product is often adequate.", "Sharing a workspace with you is not entirely unpleasant.", "I don't dread seeing your face entering my office.", "You remind me of a 16 oz. porterhouse." It makes me a bit sad that they were perceived as jokes.
  - mjevans 10y ago
    I think the last one was.
- wpietri 10y ago
  > Eh, you're assuming everyone feels the same way about everything. I don't believe that's the case; I think you're just early on in the process arpa describes. For me, part of really coming to know my own feelings was understanding the feeling very separately from the circumstances that trigger it. With that separation in hand, it was much easier to develop deeper empathy. I would perceive other people's emotions and then work on reverse-engineering their very different triggers and preferences. And, of course, reverse-engineering how I ended up with the particular triggers and preferences I had myself. For anybody eager to pursue that route, the two things I recommend are a meditation practice and seeing a therapist.

rimantas 10y ago

In the book "Quiet" I've learned that there was actually a policy in top US universities to prefer extrovert candidates to maybe better academically, but introverts.

aethertron 10y ago

>I've actually heard conference speakers call out behaviours as toxic that are basically the defining character traits of introverts Which behaviours? I'd be interested in hearing specifics. Maybe cite the conference speakers too (assuming these were public statements)? Who has condemned a preference to work alone as 'toxic'?

pluma 10y ago
The specific talk I was thinking of wasn't recorded and I don't engage in naming-and-shaming but let's just say they're fairly active in certain groups aiming to bring more diversity to certain programming communities and making the community more welcoming to newcomers. I've heard similar lines of thought from other people in the same circles before, though.
zebraflask 10y ago
I'm curious, too. I've sometimes had similar, but vague, thoughts that "introversion" can sometimes be used as a mask for really just being a very unpleasant person.