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Yes, I do understand that people can take the BSD/MIT codebase and make a proprietary/closed source version. In that case you don't even see how the bug fixes a

by k_sze 10y ago

Yes, I do understand that people can take the BSD/MIT codebase and make a proprietary/closed source version. In that case you don't even see how the bug fixes are implemented in the new closed source version. So you are free to independently come up with the most obvious, efficient fix. My point is that with GPL, the implementation of the fixes/new features is right in front of you, you see it, yet you can't merge it into your GPL-incompatible codebase. Let's say we are talking about a security fix that turns out to be really easy. Somebody patched it in the GPL version, the fix turns out to be dead-easy and obvious, but now you can't use the same dead-easy and obvious fix in your own non-GPL version because it would be a violation of GPL. So now you have to come up with a suboptimal, ugly fix. In this case, GPL makes it painful for the original author of the proprietary version.

sokoloff 10y ago
Independent creation is a valid defense against copyright (as contrasted with patent law where it's not). If the fix is dead-easy and obvious ("change that = in a if statement to an ==", "add a check for foo", or "make this assignment a 1 instead of a 0"), the GPL license of patch A doesn't prevent anyone from creating (from scratch) patch B that does the same thing. For legal proof purposes, you probably want to ensure that the author of patch B hasn't seen the contents of patch A, though for something as obvious as the cases I present, I'm not even sure I'd worry about that.
- lightdot 10y ago
  Such things might not even be copyrightable.
- AstralStorm 10y ago
  Additionally, you can always require copyright reassignment for the main repository.
martingxx 10y ago
"My point is that with GPL, the implementation of the fixes/new features is right in front of you, you see it, yet you can't merge it into your GPL-incompatible codebase." 1) You almost certainly can as long as it's trivial, or you didn't look at the fix but did it independently based on a description of the bug. Legally, it all comes down to whether your work was a derived work or the original, not whether the result looks the same. 2) That's the idea anyway! Allowing someone to copy the work of others into a codebase that doesn't allow similar copying is exactly what the GNU GPL is designed to prevent. It's a risk you take if you decide to maintain a proprietary fork.
- alexvoda 10y ago
  K_sze's point was that it is a lot harder to prove you have not seen and were not inspired by publicly available code than it is to prove you were not inspired by code that was kept secret. And while someone using free software in a non-free fork can release the changes as shared-source leading to the same problem, this has rarely happened.
_delirium 10y ago
Yes, I do understand that people can take the BSD/MIT codebase and make a proprietary/closed source version. In that case you don't even see how the bug fixes are implemented in the new closed source version. So you are free to independently come up with the most obvious, efficient fix. My point is that with GPL, the implementation of the fixes/new features is right in front of you, you see it, yet you can't merge it into your GPL-incompatible codebase. There BSD/MIT licenses don't prevent you from doing this either, though it's possible in practice it happens less. You can create not only closed-source proprietary forks of a BSD/MIT code base, but "source-available" or "shared source" proprietary forks, where the source is public but under a proprietary license that prohibits unauthorized redistribution or derivative works. There's nothing in the BSD/MIT license that requires you to keep your proprietary forks secret.
deleted 10y ago
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by k_sze 10y ago

sokoloff 10y ago

Independent creation is a valid defense against copyright (as contrasted with patent law where it's not). If the fix is dead-easy and obvious ("change that = in a if statement to an ==", "add a check for foo", or "make this assignment a 1 instead of a 0"), the GPL license of patch A doesn't prevent anyone from creating (from scratch) patch B that does the same thing. For legal proof purposes, you probably want to ensure that the author of patch B hasn't seen the contents of patch A, though for something as obvious as the cases I present, I'm not even sure I'd worry about that.

lightdot 10y ago
Such things might not even be copyrightable.
AstralStorm 10y ago
Additionally, you can always require copyright reassignment for the main repository.

martingxx 10y ago

"My point is that with GPL, the implementation of the fixes/new features is right in front of you, you see it, yet you can't merge it into your GPL-incompatible codebase." 1) You almost certainly can as long as it's trivial, or you didn't look at the fix but did it independently based on a description of the bug. Legally, it all comes down to whether your work was a derived work or the original, not whether the result looks the same. 2) That's the idea anyway! Allowing someone to copy the work of others into a codebase that doesn't allow similar copying is exactly what the GNU GPL is designed to prevent. It's a risk you take if you decide to maintain a proprietary fork.

alexvoda 10y ago
K_sze's point was that it is a lot harder to prove you have not seen and were not inspired by publicly available code than it is to prove you were not inspired by code that was kept secret. And while someone using free software in a non-free fork can release the changes as shared-source leading to the same problem, this has rarely happened.

_delirium 10y ago

Yes, I do understand that people can take the BSD/MIT codebase and make a proprietary/closed source version. In that case you don't even see how the bug fixes are implemented in the new closed source version. So you are free to independently come up with the most obvious, efficient fix. My point is that with GPL, the implementation of the fixes/new features is right in front of you, you see it, yet you can't merge it into your GPL-incompatible codebase. There BSD/MIT licenses don't prevent you from doing this either, though it's possible in practice it happens less. You can create not only closed-source proprietary forks of a BSD/MIT code base, but "source-available" or "shared source" proprietary forks, where the source is public but under a proprietary license that prohibits unauthorized redistribution or derivative works. There's nothing in the BSD/MIT license that requires you to keep your proprietary forks secret.

deleted 10y ago

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