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Honestly, I've always scratched my head slightly at the fact that one is allowed to travel with an explosive device, so long as it also functions as a battery -

Honestly, I've always scratched my head slightly at the fact that one is allowed to travel with an explosive device, so long as it also functions as a battery - yet bottled water is way out. It's trivially easy to make a lithium fire at 45,000 feet. Stamp on/bend an IMR 18450, and you have a torch which will burn through a window. Hell, you could probably just fold your phone in half - most batteries run the full height of devices these days.

duncan_bayne 10y ago
Sure. But what is the maximum possible damage from a burning battery? Even if you managed to burn through a window, that'd be highly unlikely to down a modern airliner.
- coldtea 10y ago
  >* But what is the maximum possible damage from a burning battery?* As opposed to the one from bottled water?
  - CannisterFlux 10y ago
    Airports around the world must make a fortune selling bottled water. That rule is never going away no matter how stupid it is :-(
    - kevinmgranger 10y ago
      I've yet to step foot in an airport that didn't have water fountains, and won't let you take an empty reusable bottle through security. There's no need to buy bottled water.
      - cozzyd 10y ago
        I don't remember any fountains in the Warsaw airport.
        coldtea 10y ago
        The exception that proves the rule (else it wouldn't be a rule, but a universal law that goes without saying)... http://comicfury.com/forum/viewthread.php?id=26895 http://comicfury.com/forum/viewthread.php?id=26895
        JadeNB 10y ago
        Heathrow, too, the last time I was there—though it was a long time ago. (I actually asked.)
      - CannisterFlux 10y ago
        I take empty bottles always, but most airports have no fountains and only hot water in the bathrooms.
  - jbb555 10y ago
    I think the point is that it might not water...
    - coldtea 10y ago
      In that case your "small toothpaste" (which is allowed) might not be that either. And you can always dilute it in your air-hostess delivered water if you're so inclined and you just need to have your poison/whatever in liquid form...
      - x1798DE 10y ago
        The threat they are trying to guard against is binary liquid explosives, where you mix two liquids to make a bomb, so volume does matter. Of course, it's a idiotic way to accomplish their goal anyway, but their goal is idiotic anyway, so it's all security theater anyway.
        jsymolon 10y ago
        > binary explosives ... Please, what a frigging joke. Be cooped up in a small bumpy space for hours trying to create a very touchy explosive. ... hydrogen peroxide, acetone, and sulfuric acid ... put a beaker containing the peroxide / acetone mixture into the ice water bath (Champagne bucket), and start adding the acid, drop by drop, while stirring constantly. Watch the reaction temperature carefully. The mixture will heat, and if it gets too hot, you'll end up with a weak explosive. In fact, if it gets really hot, you'll get a premature explosion possibly sufficient to kill you, but probably no one else. After a few hours - assuming, by some miracle, that the fumes haven't overcome you or alerted passengers or the flight crew to your activities - you'll have a quantity of TATP with which to carry out your mission. Now all you need to do is dry it for an hour or two.
        fucking_tragedy 10y ago
        I hope you like lists.
        10y ago
yardie 10y ago
Lol! madaxe on his next flight: "Sir, could you please step over here"
r_smart 10y ago
I don't know about the battery you're referencing but as far as phones go: I once cooked a Li battery from a Galaxy S5 under a thermostream at 200C (totally not by accident guys!) and it outgassed a lot, but there was no signs of fire. The battery was certainly warped and distended, and no doubt it got hot! Further, I've seen videos of people piercing phone batteries, and it outgasses, but there was no fire. Not saying it's impossible, but at least with phones, it's less likely.
- jschwartzi 10y ago
  Did it still hold a charge after you were done?
  - r_smart 10y ago
    I confess I didn't try it. The whole casing had ruptured and was warped / distended. It wouldn't have even been close to fitting back in the phone. Also, passing current through it was the furthest thing from my mind. I assure you, it's not because I was embarrassed by my screwup and trying to clean up my mess as quickly as possible (plus feeling a little loopy from being gassed out).
    - Filligree 10y ago
      I hope you went to a hospital to get checked out after that. Some of the gases from cooking li-ion batteries are poisonous, and can cause long-term damage. Honestly, if you see a li-ion battery on fire, probably the best thing to do is to run. Throw it somewhere not-very-flammable if convenient, but get the heck out of there. And hold your breath.
      - r_smart 10y ago
        I didn't go to the hospital. It was in a large well-ventilated room, so it was bad, but not awful (mostly could just smell something bad). And it never actually caught fire. I did however throw it in a chamber we had fashioned for tests that might explode a battery (which this one was not supposed to be). One of my co-workers got the worst of it, and I think he ended up calling out sick the next day. I felt really bad about that. *edit: Just wanted to add that your advice is still sound. I strongly advise against inhaling that stuff. Better yet, don't cook them, and don't deviate from your procedure just because someone came and asked you for help at precisely that moment.
rayiner 10y ago
You're comparing unlike things. Bottled water is not banned because someone decided it was more dangerous than lithium batteries. Bottles of liquid more than 100ml are banned because they can be used to carry on chemicals that can be combined to make something much more dangerous than a battery. Note also that lithium-ion batteries over 100 watt-hours are banned too.
abfan1127 10y ago
it isn't about safety. its about an illusion of effectiveness. 97% failure rate based on their own internal evaluations. If the water bottle was so dangerous, you wouldn't be allowed to throw it away in the trash can right next to the screeners.
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  I believe the fear with liquids is that several chemicals could be combined on the plane to create a bomb. A bottle of fluid, by itself, is not likely to be very dangerous. Several bottles + time + privacy--maybe.
snowwrestler 10y ago
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/651/ https://xkcd.com/651/

duncan_bayne 10y ago

Sure. But what is the maximum possible damage from a burning battery? Even if you managed to burn through a window, that'd be highly unlikely to down a modern airliner.

coldtea 10y ago
>* But what is the maximum possible damage from a burning battery?* As opposed to the one from bottled water?
- CannisterFlux 10y ago
  Airports around the world must make a fortune selling bottled water. That rule is never going away no matter how stupid it is :-(
  - kevinmgranger 10y ago
    I've yet to step foot in an airport that didn't have water fountains, and won't let you take an empty reusable bottle through security. There's no need to buy bottled water.
    - cozzyd 10y ago
      I don't remember any fountains in the Warsaw airport.
      - coldtea 10y ago
        The exception that proves the rule (else it wouldn't be a rule, but a universal law that goes without saying)... http://comicfury.com/forum/viewthread.php?id=26895 http://comicfury.com/forum/viewthread.php?id=26895
      - JadeNB 10y ago
        Heathrow, too, the last time I was there—though it was a long time ago. (I actually asked.)
    - CannisterFlux 10y ago
      I take empty bottles always, but most airports have no fountains and only hot water in the bathrooms.
- jbb555 10y ago
  I think the point is that it might not water...
  - coldtea 10y ago
    In that case your "small toothpaste" (which is allowed) might not be that either. And you can always dilute it in your air-hostess delivered water if you're so inclined and you just need to have your poison/whatever in liquid form...
    - x1798DE 10y ago
      The threat they are trying to guard against is binary liquid explosives, where you mix two liquids to make a bomb, so volume does matter. Of course, it's a idiotic way to accomplish their goal anyway, but their goal is idiotic anyway, so it's all security theater anyway.
      - jsymolon 10y ago
        > binary explosives ... Please, what a frigging joke. Be cooped up in a small bumpy space for hours trying to create a very touchy explosive. ... hydrogen peroxide, acetone, and sulfuric acid ... put a beaker containing the peroxide / acetone mixture into the ice water bath (Champagne bucket), and start adding the acid, drop by drop, while stirring constantly. Watch the reaction temperature carefully. The mixture will heat, and if it gets too hot, you'll end up with a weak explosive. In fact, if it gets really hot, you'll get a premature explosion possibly sufficient to kill you, but probably no one else. After a few hours - assuming, by some miracle, that the fumes haven't overcome you or alerted passengers or the flight crew to your activities - you'll have a quantity of TATP with which to carry out your mission. Now all you need to do is dry it for an hour or two.
        fucking_tragedy 10y ago
        I hope you like lists.
        10y ago

yardie 10y ago

Lol! madaxe on his next flight: "Sir, could you please step over here"

r_smart 10y ago

I don't know about the battery you're referencing but as far as phones go: I once cooked a Li battery from a Galaxy S5 under a thermostream at 200C (totally not by accident guys!) and it outgassed a lot, but there was no signs of fire. The battery was certainly warped and distended, and no doubt it got hot! Further, I've seen videos of people piercing phone batteries, and it outgasses, but there was no fire. Not saying it's impossible, but at least with phones, it's less likely.

jschwartzi 10y ago
Did it still hold a charge after you were done?
- r_smart 10y ago
  I confess I didn't try it. The whole casing had ruptured and was warped / distended. It wouldn't have even been close to fitting back in the phone. Also, passing current through it was the furthest thing from my mind. I assure you, it's not because I was embarrassed by my screwup and trying to clean up my mess as quickly as possible (plus feeling a little loopy from being gassed out).
  - Filligree 10y ago
    I hope you went to a hospital to get checked out after that. Some of the gases from cooking li-ion batteries are poisonous, and can cause long-term damage. Honestly, if you see a li-ion battery on fire, probably the best thing to do is to run. Throw it somewhere not-very-flammable if convenient, but get the heck out of there. And hold your breath.
    - r_smart 10y ago
      I didn't go to the hospital. It was in a large well-ventilated room, so it was bad, but not awful (mostly could just smell something bad). And it never actually caught fire. I did however throw it in a chamber we had fashioned for tests that might explode a battery (which this one was not supposed to be). One of my co-workers got the worst of it, and I think he ended up calling out sick the next day. I felt really bad about that. *edit: Just wanted to add that your advice is still sound. I strongly advise against inhaling that stuff. Better yet, don't cook them, and don't deviate from your procedure just because someone came and asked you for help at precisely that moment.

rayiner 10y ago

You're comparing unlike things. Bottled water is not banned because someone decided it was more dangerous than lithium batteries. Bottles of liquid more than 100ml are banned because they can be used to carry on chemicals that can be combined to make something much more dangerous than a battery. Note also that lithium-ion batteries over 100 watt-hours are banned too.

abfan1127 10y ago

it isn't about safety. its about an illusion of effectiveness. 97% failure rate based on their own internal evaluations. If the water bottle was so dangerous, you wouldn't be allowed to throw it away in the trash can right next to the screeners.

snowwrestler 10y ago
I believe the fear with liquids is that several chemicals could be combined on the plane to create a bomb. A bottle of fluid, by itself, is not likely to be very dangerous. Several bottles + time + privacy--maybe.

snowwrestler 10y ago

Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/651/ https://xkcd.com/651/