4 ms·

This has always been puzzling to me. Is it not just more-or-less a linguistic thing? In the Anglosphere, "America" refers to the US. Nothing about it is malicio

by ocb 10y ago

This has always been puzzling to me. Is it not just more-or-less a linguistic thing? In the Anglosphere, "America" refers to the US. Nothing about it is malicious or in contempt of Mexico or any other states in the Western Hemisphere, that's just how the terminology evolved.

dalke 10y ago
What is a continent? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent points out that different countries have different models. "France and its former colonies, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Romania, Latin America, and Greece" use a 6-continent model, where "America" is both North and South America. That WP page points to http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=norteamerica http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=norteamerica , which says: > Tanto América del Norte como Norteamérica son designaciones correctas del subcontinente americano que engloba el conjunto de países situados al norte de México y al propio México. > [Both 'America of the North' and 'North America' are correct designations of the American subcontinent which encompasses the union of the countries north of Mexico and Mexico itself.] The second definition points out that in Spanish, "North America" is often used as a synonym for the US, with the lovely example: > En América, solamente la República Argentina tiene organizados sus cultivos usando tecnología moderna, exceptuando Canadá y Norteamérica > [In America, only the Argentine Republic has organized their crops using modern technology, except Canada and North America] If you grew up learning that your country was part of America-the-continent, then I can easily see why it's irritating to have others say that it isn't. I am wary about justifying something with "Just how the terminology evolved". Sometimes language evolves for malicious purposes, or to enforce certain cultural prejudices. Look at recent HN discussions on how "expat" is a high status word for "temporary guest worker from a rich country", or how "jaywalker" was invented to castigate pedestrians who don't give way to drivers.
jordigh 10y ago
> Nothing about it is malicious or in contempt of Mexico or any other states in the Western Hemisphere It is malicious, but so ingrained into the psyche that the malice is forgotten by those into whom it was perpetuated. It is saying that the rest of the continent isn't American, somehow, that when you talk about American dreams and American ideals and the promise of freedom that America once meant to Europeans, you are definitely not extending those promises, dreams, and aspirations to the rest of America. Even the Lebanese diaspora that arrived in Mexico and Colombia (Salma Hayek, Shakira Mebarak, Carlos Slim, Demian Bíchir) were travellers aiming for America and her promises. "America" is a very loaded term, even when used to refer to the United States. People use it differently. United States is more formal, America more aspirational. Well, the rest of America also has these aspirations. Like Morelos wrote, "That prohibit slavery forever, as the distinction of caste, being all equal and only vice and virtue distinguish an American from the other." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimientos_de_la_Naci%C3%B3n https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimientos_de_la_Naci%C3%B3n A whole immense garden, this is America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL3u7qU_09w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL3u7qU_09w
- ocb 10y ago
  None of that changes the fact that, in English, "America" typically denotes the US and not the Western Hemisphere as a whole. You're splitting hairs over people using a word differently in English than they do in Spanish.
  - jordigh 10y ago
    But you can't forget where the meaning comes from. I'm sure lots of people use "nigger", confederate flags, or "banana republic" without any malice too, but it doesn't mean that the people who hear it don't hear the malice. It's not about English vs Spanish. It's not just a false cognate like "compromise" vs "compromiso" or "preservative" vs "preservativo". It's a term loaded with political meaning. It's about US vs America. Sure, the US is powerful and has managed to convince most of the world, even the parts that don't speak English, that the US is the only America worth talking about. On the other hand, Canada isn't entirely happy about not being America either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29g57XTYgLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29g57XTYgLE
    - ocb 10y ago
      You don't get it. Singular "America" in its common usage in English to refer to the US is absolutely not a politically loaded term, at least not in the sense that you are saying. Your assertion to the contrary because you were taught differently in a non-Anglophone country does not change that. Language cannot be divorced from culture.
      - jordigh 10y ago
        It is politically loaded to many people who hear it. Testament to the fact: "Murica" is used as a joke word to refer to things such as giant hot dogs, big guns, or invading other countries. Further testament to the fact: the song America the Beautiful, the saying "God bless America", America, land of the free. Using "United States" in any of these would sound awkward and wrong, right? "United States the beautiful"? That is because "America" is overwhelmingly used with positive connotations, but only for the US, and that is what I'm protesting. The rest of America also wants these positive connotations, but instead we get not-quite-America such as Latin America, South America, or some other-adjective-America.

by ocb 10y ago

dalke 10y ago

What is a continent? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent points out that different countries have different models. "France and its former colonies, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Romania, Latin America, and Greece" use a 6-continent model, where "America" is both North and South America. That WP page points to http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=norteamerica http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=norteamerica , which says: > Tanto América del Norte como Norteamérica son designaciones correctas del subcontinente americano que engloba el conjunto de países situados al norte de México y al propio México. > [Both 'America of the North' and 'North America' are correct designations of the American subcontinent which encompasses the union of the countries north of Mexico and Mexico itself.] The second definition points out that in Spanish, "North America" is often used as a synonym for the US, with the lovely example: > En América, solamente la República Argentina tiene organizados sus cultivos usando tecnología moderna, exceptuando Canadá y Norteamérica > [In America, only the Argentine Republic has organized their crops using modern technology, except Canada and North America] If you grew up learning that your country was part of America-the-continent, then I can easily see why it's irritating to have others say that it isn't. I am wary about justifying something with "Just how the terminology evolved". Sometimes language evolves for malicious purposes, or to enforce certain cultural prejudices. Look at recent HN discussions on how "expat" is a high status word for "temporary guest worker from a rich country", or how "jaywalker" was invented to castigate pedestrians who don't give way to drivers.

jordigh 10y ago

> Nothing about it is malicious or in contempt of Mexico or any other states in the Western Hemisphere It is malicious, but so ingrained into the psyche that the malice is forgotten by those into whom it was perpetuated. It is saying that the rest of the continent isn't American, somehow, that when you talk about American dreams and American ideals and the promise of freedom that America once meant to Europeans, you are definitely not extending those promises, dreams, and aspirations to the rest of America. Even the Lebanese diaspora that arrived in Mexico and Colombia (Salma Hayek, Shakira Mebarak, Carlos Slim, Demian Bíchir) were travellers aiming for America and her promises. "America" is a very loaded term, even when used to refer to the United States. People use it differently. United States is more formal, America more aspirational. Well, the rest of America also has these aspirations. Like Morelos wrote, "That prohibit slavery forever, as the distinction of caste, being all equal and only vice and virtue distinguish an American from the other." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimientos_de_la_Naci%C3%B3n https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimientos_de_la_Naci%C3%B3n A whole immense garden, this is America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL3u7qU_09w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL3u7qU_09w

ocb 10y ago
None of that changes the fact that, in English, "America" typically denotes the US and not the Western Hemisphere as a whole. You're splitting hairs over people using a word differently in English than they do in Spanish.
- jordigh 10y ago
  But you can't forget where the meaning comes from. I'm sure lots of people use "nigger", confederate flags, or "banana republic" without any malice too, but it doesn't mean that the people who hear it don't hear the malice. It's not about English vs Spanish. It's not just a false cognate like "compromise" vs "compromiso" or "preservative" vs "preservativo". It's a term loaded with political meaning. It's about US vs America. Sure, the US is powerful and has managed to convince most of the world, even the parts that don't speak English, that the US is the only America worth talking about. On the other hand, Canada isn't entirely happy about not being America either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29g57XTYgLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29g57XTYgLE
  - ocb 10y ago
    You don't get it. Singular "America" in its common usage in English to refer to the US is absolutely not a politically loaded term, at least not in the sense that you are saying. Your assertion to the contrary because you were taught differently in a non-Anglophone country does not change that. Language cannot be divorced from culture.
    - jordigh 10y ago
      It is politically loaded to many people who hear it. Testament to the fact: "Murica" is used as a joke word to refer to things such as giant hot dogs, big guns, or invading other countries. Further testament to the fact: the song America the Beautiful, the saying "God bless America", America, land of the free. Using "United States" in any of these would sound awkward and wrong, right? "United States the beautiful"? That is because "America" is overwhelmingly used with positive connotations, but only for the US, and that is what I'm protesting. The rest of America also wants these positive connotations, but instead we get not-quite-America such as Latin America, South America, or some other-adjective-America.