5 ms·

Not if you ask someone from Mexico like myself. And since this is a Mexican heritage thing we're talking about here... The whole America-means-US thing didn't

by jordigh 10y ago

Not if you ask someone from Mexico like myself. And since this is a Mexican heritage thing we're talking about here... The whole America-means-US thing didn't happen until well into the 19th century.

ocb 10y ago
This has always been puzzling to me. Is it not just more-or-less a linguistic thing? In the Anglosphere, "America" refers to the US. Nothing about it is malicious or in contempt of Mexico or any other states in the Western Hemisphere, that's just how the terminology evolved.
- dalke 10y ago
  What is a continent? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent points out that different countries have different models. "France and its former colonies, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Romania, Latin America, and Greece" use a 6-continent model, where "America" is both North and South America. That WP page points to http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=norteamerica http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=norteamerica , which says: > Tanto América del Norte como Norteamérica son designaciones correctas del subcontinente americano que engloba el conjunto de países situados al norte de México y al propio México. > [Both 'America of the North' and 'North America' are correct designations of the American subcontinent which encompasses the union of the countries north of Mexico and Mexico itself.] The second definition points out that in Spanish, "North America" is often used as a synonym for the US, with the lovely example: > En América, solamente la República Argentina tiene organizados sus cultivos usando tecnología moderna, exceptuando Canadá y Norteamérica > [In America, only the Argentine Republic has organized their crops using modern technology, except Canada and North America] If you grew up learning that your country was part of America-the-continent, then I can easily see why it's irritating to have others say that it isn't. I am wary about justifying something with "Just how the terminology evolved". Sometimes language evolves for malicious purposes, or to enforce certain cultural prejudices. Look at recent HN discussions on how "expat" is a high status word for "temporary guest worker from a rich country", or how "jaywalker" was invented to castigate pedestrians who don't give way to drivers.
- jordigh 10y ago
  > Nothing about it is malicious or in contempt of Mexico or any other states in the Western Hemisphere It is malicious, but so ingrained into the psyche that the malice is forgotten by those into whom it was perpetuated. It is saying that the rest of the continent isn't American, somehow, that when you talk about American dreams and American ideals and the promise of freedom that America once meant to Europeans, you are definitely not extending those promises, dreams, and aspirations to the rest of America. Even the Lebanese diaspora that arrived in Mexico and Colombia (Salma Hayek, Shakira Mebarak, Carlos Slim, Demian Bíchir) were travellers aiming for America and her promises. "America" is a very loaded term, even when used to refer to the United States. People use it differently. United States is more formal, America more aspirational. Well, the rest of America also has these aspirations. Like Morelos wrote, "That prohibit slavery forever, as the distinction of caste, being all equal and only vice and virtue distinguish an American from the other." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimientos_de_la_Naci%C3%B3n https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimientos_de_la_Naci%C3%B3n A whole immense garden, this is America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL3u7qU_09w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL3u7qU_09w
  - ocb 10y ago
    None of that changes the fact that, in English, "America" typically denotes the US and not the Western Hemisphere as a whole. You're splitting hairs over people using a word differently in English than they do in Spanish.
    - jordigh 10y ago
      But you can't forget where the meaning comes from. I'm sure lots of people use "nigger", confederate flags, or "banana republic" without any malice too, but it doesn't mean that the people who hear it don't hear the malice. It's not about English vs Spanish. It's not just a false cognate like "compromise" vs "compromiso" or "preservative" vs "preservativo". It's a term loaded with political meaning. It's about US vs America. Sure, the US is powerful and has managed to convince most of the world, even the parts that don't speak English, that the US is the only America worth talking about. On the other hand, Canada isn't entirely happy about not being America either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29g57XTYgLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29g57XTYgLE
aaronbrethorst 10y ago
ok, fair enough, but this is the Washington Post, not El Universal.
- 1_listerine_pls 10y ago
  El jordigh y sus mamadas.
  - jordigh 10y ago
    A huevísimo, mis mamadas. http://jordi.platinum.linux.pl/piccies/afirmativo.png http://jordi.platinum.linux.pl/piccies/afirmativo.png
blakeyrat 10y ago
"America" is the only word in "the United States of America" that is sufficiently unique to identify which country you're talking about. Mexico is "the United Mexican States", so there's a large overlap. Canada's just Canada. So being pedantically technically-correct, people saying "the United States" or just "the States" are using a name that could be confused for Mexico in theory in some place or time.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > So being pedantically technically-correct, people saying "the United States" or just "the States" are using a name that could be confused for Mexico in theory in some place or time. In theory, but not in practice. I mean, even in los Estados Unidos Mexicanos [0], the phrase Estados Unidos without qualification invariably and without confusion refers to the USA, and the things and people belonging to their northern neighbor are described with the adjective "estadounidense". [0] Which, AFAIK, no one ever actually refers to as such in conversation, and there have even been recent proposals to change the official name to simply México.
  - blakeyrat 10y ago
    > In theory, but not in practice. Yes, thank you, that was the joke. Apparently far too subtle.
pluma 10y ago
So? In the English-speaking world "America" almost never means "North and South America". I'm not even a native English speaker or US resident and even I would interpret "America" to mean "USA" if it appeared like that in the headline. "Americas" makes it completely unambiguous to all audiences, so why not use it?
- senorjazz 10y ago
  As a European in south America, I have noticed that no one from the US says "America" when asked where they are from, they will say the state mostly or the US. Latin Americans will use America/Americas interchanagebly Europeans aremost likely to refer to the US as "america" one
  - pluma 10y ago
    I didn't argue that "America" always means "USA". I said "America" is ambiguous whereas "Americas" is not. There is no benefit in changing it from "Americas", quite to the contrary: it will confuse readers who equate "America" with "USA". As you're making it sound as if "America = USA" is a European thing, here are some English-language Google results: South Africa: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Aza https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Aza Australia: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Aau https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Aau New Zealand: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Anz https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Anz The majority of results either specifically mention North/South America by name or use "America" to refer to the US. Additionally there are of course various results for US-based or US-centric organisations with "America" as part of their name: Bank of America, American Airlines and of course "Au Pair in America" (which offers au pair jobs in the US). So while someone from the US may say they're "from the US" rather than "from America", it seems like most English speakers outside the Americas mean the US when they say "America" with no qualifier. Heck, even Wikipedia acknowledges this: "However, without a clarifying context, singular America in English commonly refers to the United States of America." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_of_the_Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_of_the_Americas) In other words: if you want to explicitly talk about the entire geographical area of both North and South America, just say "Americas" so you don't confuse anyone (even if it may hurt some people's feelings by making it apparent that "America" is ambiguous).

by jordigh 10y ago

Not if you ask someone from Mexico like myself. And since this is a Mexican heritage thing we're talking about here... The whole America-means-US thing didn't happen until well into the 19th century.

ocb 10y ago

This has always been puzzling to me. Is it not just more-or-less a linguistic thing? In the Anglosphere, "America" refers to the US. Nothing about it is malicious or in contempt of Mexico or any other states in the Western Hemisphere, that's just how the terminology evolved.

dalke 10y ago
What is a continent? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent points out that different countries have different models. "France and its former colonies, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Romania, Latin America, and Greece" use a 6-continent model, where "America" is both North and South America. That WP page points to http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=norteamerica http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=norteamerica , which says: > Tanto América del Norte como Norteamérica son designaciones correctas del subcontinente americano que engloba el conjunto de países situados al norte de México y al propio México. > [Both 'America of the North' and 'North America' are correct designations of the American subcontinent which encompasses the union of the countries north of Mexico and Mexico itself.] The second definition points out that in Spanish, "North America" is often used as a synonym for the US, with the lovely example: > En América, solamente la República Argentina tiene organizados sus cultivos usando tecnología moderna, exceptuando Canadá y Norteamérica > [In America, only the Argentine Republic has organized their crops using modern technology, except Canada and North America] If you grew up learning that your country was part of America-the-continent, then I can easily see why it's irritating to have others say that it isn't. I am wary about justifying something with "Just how the terminology evolved". Sometimes language evolves for malicious purposes, or to enforce certain cultural prejudices. Look at recent HN discussions on how "expat" is a high status word for "temporary guest worker from a rich country", or how "jaywalker" was invented to castigate pedestrians who don't give way to drivers.
jordigh 10y ago
> Nothing about it is malicious or in contempt of Mexico or any other states in the Western Hemisphere It is malicious, but so ingrained into the psyche that the malice is forgotten by those into whom it was perpetuated. It is saying that the rest of the continent isn't American, somehow, that when you talk about American dreams and American ideals and the promise of freedom that America once meant to Europeans, you are definitely not extending those promises, dreams, and aspirations to the rest of America. Even the Lebanese diaspora that arrived in Mexico and Colombia (Salma Hayek, Shakira Mebarak, Carlos Slim, Demian Bíchir) were travellers aiming for America and her promises. "America" is a very loaded term, even when used to refer to the United States. People use it differently. United States is more formal, America more aspirational. Well, the rest of America also has these aspirations. Like Morelos wrote, "That prohibit slavery forever, as the distinction of caste, being all equal and only vice and virtue distinguish an American from the other." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimientos_de_la_Naci%C3%B3n https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentimientos_de_la_Naci%C3%B3n A whole immense garden, this is America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL3u7qU_09w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL3u7qU_09w
- ocb 10y ago
  None of that changes the fact that, in English, "America" typically denotes the US and not the Western Hemisphere as a whole. You're splitting hairs over people using a word differently in English than they do in Spanish.
  - jordigh 10y ago
    But you can't forget where the meaning comes from. I'm sure lots of people use "nigger", confederate flags, or "banana republic" without any malice too, but it doesn't mean that the people who hear it don't hear the malice. It's not about English vs Spanish. It's not just a false cognate like "compromise" vs "compromiso" or "preservative" vs "preservativo". It's a term loaded with political meaning. It's about US vs America. Sure, the US is powerful and has managed to convince most of the world, even the parts that don't speak English, that the US is the only America worth talking about. On the other hand, Canada isn't entirely happy about not being America either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29g57XTYgLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29g57XTYgLE

aaronbrethorst 10y ago

ok, fair enough, but this is the Washington Post, not El Universal.

1_listerine_pls 10y ago
El jordigh y sus mamadas.
- jordigh 10y ago
  A huevísimo, mis mamadas. http://jordi.platinum.linux.pl/piccies/afirmativo.png http://jordi.platinum.linux.pl/piccies/afirmativo.png

blakeyrat 10y ago

"America" is the only word in "the United States of America" that is sufficiently unique to identify which country you're talking about. Mexico is "the United Mexican States", so there's a large overlap. Canada's just Canada. So being pedantically technically-correct, people saying "the United States" or just "the States" are using a name that could be confused for Mexico in theory in some place or time.

dragonwriter 10y ago
> So being pedantically technically-correct, people saying "the United States" or just "the States" are using a name that could be confused for Mexico in theory in some place or time. In theory, but not in practice. I mean, even in los Estados Unidos Mexicanos [0], the phrase Estados Unidos without qualification invariably and without confusion refers to the USA, and the things and people belonging to their northern neighbor are described with the adjective "estadounidense". [0] Which, AFAIK, no one ever actually refers to as such in conversation, and there have even been recent proposals to change the official name to simply México.
- blakeyrat 10y ago
  > In theory, but not in practice. Yes, thank you, that was the joke. Apparently far too subtle.

pluma 10y ago

So? In the English-speaking world "America" almost never means "North and South America". I'm not even a native English speaker or US resident and even I would interpret "America" to mean "USA" if it appeared like that in the headline. "Americas" makes it completely unambiguous to all audiences, so why not use it?

senorjazz 10y ago
As a European in south America, I have noticed that no one from the US says "America" when asked where they are from, they will say the state mostly or the US. Latin Americans will use America/Americas interchanagebly Europeans aremost likely to refer to the US as "america" one
- pluma 10y ago
  I didn't argue that "America" always means "USA". I said "America" is ambiguous whereas "Americas" is not. There is no benefit in changing it from "Americas", quite to the contrary: it will confuse readers who equate "America" with "USA". As you're making it sound as if "America = USA" is a European thing, here are some English-language Google results: South Africa: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Aza https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Aza Australia: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Aau https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Aau New Zealand: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Anz https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=america+site%3Anz The majority of results either specifically mention North/South America by name or use "America" to refer to the US. Additionally there are of course various results for US-based or US-centric organisations with "America" as part of their name: Bank of America, American Airlines and of course "Au Pair in America" (which offers au pair jobs in the US). So while someone from the US may say they're "from the US" rather than "from America", it seems like most English speakers outside the Americas mean the US when they say "America" with no qualifier. Heck, even Wikipedia acknowledges this: "However, without a clarifying context, singular America in English commonly refers to the United States of America." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_of_the_Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_of_the_Americas) In other words: if you want to explicitly talk about the entire geographical area of both North and South America, just say "Americas" so you don't confuse anyone (even if it may hurt some people's feelings by making it apparent that "America" is ambiguous).