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Nah, they don't seem to, and it's not. Isn't intellectual debate fun? Also, what do they disagree on - that an Iraqi bombed to death is worse off than even a p

Nah, they don't seem to, and it's not. Isn't intellectual debate fun? Also, what do they disagree on - that an Iraqi bombed to death is worse off than even a poor albino woman in the US? That starving to death in Africa as a male is worse than being a female engineer wherever? Technically, you just called "most female engineers" very ignorant and selfish.

stale2002 10y ago
Maybe you should talk to some women engineers sometime and get their opinion. Because I have spoken to a lot of them, and read about many of their experiences. And the vast majority of them say the same thing. That they have to deal with serious problems that their male counterparts do not. And just because other people have things worse, doesn't mean that other important problems don't exist.
- jshevek 10y ago
  I've also spoken to a lot of them, and the majority (of them) completely disagree with you. Maybe both of our sets of women engineers involve some selection bias? Regardless, I find this... > Maybe you should talk to some women engineers sometime and get their opinion. ... and the implication that you have enough information to conclude that the parent simply _could not_ have already talked to women engineers - and the further implication that your assessment of the opinions of women engineers must necessarily be canonical - to be strangely arrogant, condescending, and unconstructive.
  - stale2002 10y ago
    I don't know what to tell you man. We can just look at the article. Or any of the posts in this thread that claim to be from a woman. Every post from the article seems to support my claim and not yours. Thats only N= 4 or 5, but thats still something. "and the implication that you have enough information to conclude that the parent simply _could not_ have already talked to women engineers " Yes, this is indeed my implication. That he could not have possibly already talked to very many women. I would say the same thing if someone were to claim "Racism in America is over!" Such a person who makes this claim has clearly not talked to very many black people, or hasn't listened to them.
    - PavlovsCat 10y ago
      > Yes, this is indeed my implication. That he could not have possibly already talked to very many women. Wait, me? Heh. That proves, as a matter of fact, that you don't know shit about me. > I would say the same thing if someone were to claim "Racism in America is over!" Except I didn't make any such declaration, I said what I actually said, and you deflected from those actual words by fantasizing about me based on a straw man. I didn't say everything is fair for women, I say there is way bigger unfairness on other levels, up to murder and carpet bombing, and I know plenty of intelligent strong women who exactly zero problems not only realizing that, they'd feel insulted if I didn't assume they know that. I mean, geez.
- PavlovsCat 10y ago
  > they have to deal with serious problems that their male counterparts do not. Who denied that? But that still leaves the question is how to react to that, and furthermore, with what motivation, and what long-term goals, if any. Which is off-topic, granted, but it's not like I mean any of this to say that "asking a female engineer is dumb, why would that even be a thing", at least not as far as I'm concerned. It's a great idea, which is why I don't see much to talk about there. When a question comes to mind, I'll pose it, until then I might still respond to tangents others went on. > And just because other people have things worse, doesn't mean that other important problems don't exist. No, but it's a great litmus test for differentiating between people who care about inequality where it affects them, and not so much when it affects others. For something that has morality as the sole argument, that matters. It has nothing to do with engineering either. On the one hand, John Lennon's song "Woman is the nigger of the world" is still sadly true, on the other hand, so is Ron Dellums' response to the controversy it caused: > If you define "niggers" as someone whose lifestyle is defined by others, whose opportunities are defined by others, whose role in society are defined by others, then Good News! You don't have to be black to be a "nigger" in this society. Most of the people in America are "niggers". -- Ron Dellums Is that what-aboutism? Or just saying "yeah, and if this upsets you, the next thing I'm going to show you is going to make you mad, because it contains an even HIGHER concentration of what you say makes you mad about this thing!". If then people react like cork to a magnet to that higher concentration, it's not the values and principles they care about, it's that they might get something out of it. Which all sorts of people do in all sorts of areas, making them lamers in my books, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, the victimization happened and happens, and it's unacceptable and a screaming injustice. But there is still, on top of that, this fork in the road: where the question comes up whether someone wants to find ways to STOP being a victim, or if they want to find ways to USE that status. Both approaches are used by people, and they are mutually exclusive. Being off-topic doesn't make it less true or less unsettling a blind spot. Something like Crockford getting disinvited would never ever happened with reversed genders, and we're still talking about how only women have those unique experiences? I agree it doesn't matter in scale -- women "have it worse" atm in many respects -- but it does matter in principle, and where I get a scent that it doesn't, I absolutely am out, and so are dozens of women I know. Yes, they want a fair shot, they don't want to die the death of a thousand paper cuts, but still no, resoundingly no, they don't want a vagina pass. They want to be peers, and being more than that would be just as bad to them as being less than that. They are not corrupt people, they have character. I suspect it correlates to that, and that many females, engineer or not, actually DO notice that on top of the shitty end of the stick they receive, there are these assholes prancing around with a vagina pass, making it worse for them and everybody for personal gain. So again, while it's off-topic, and wasn't even on my radar before I saw with what rhetoric and handwaving Jacob Appelbaum was assassinated in front of our eyes, I absolutely consider it a deal breaker, an elephant on the couch, something that needs to be dealt with and nipped in the bud. I am absolutely on board with and loyal to anyone who shares this disgust of doing using victimhood to victimize - the rest can fend for themselves. Against the better part of humanity too, I dare say.

stale2002 10y ago

Maybe you should talk to some women engineers sometime and get their opinion. Because I have spoken to a lot of them, and read about many of their experiences. And the vast majority of them say the same thing. That they have to deal with serious problems that their male counterparts do not. And just because other people have things worse, doesn't mean that other important problems don't exist.

jshevek 10y ago
I've also spoken to a lot of them, and the majority (of them) completely disagree with you. Maybe both of our sets of women engineers involve some selection bias? Regardless, I find this... > Maybe you should talk to some women engineers sometime and get their opinion. ... and the implication that you have enough information to conclude that the parent simply _could not_ have already talked to women engineers - and the further implication that your assessment of the opinions of women engineers must necessarily be canonical - to be strangely arrogant, condescending, and unconstructive.
- stale2002 10y ago
  I don't know what to tell you man. We can just look at the article. Or any of the posts in this thread that claim to be from a woman. Every post from the article seems to support my claim and not yours. Thats only N= 4 or 5, but thats still something. "and the implication that you have enough information to conclude that the parent simply _could not_ have already talked to women engineers " Yes, this is indeed my implication. That he could not have possibly already talked to very many women. I would say the same thing if someone were to claim "Racism in America is over!" Such a person who makes this claim has clearly not talked to very many black people, or hasn't listened to them.
  - PavlovsCat 10y ago
    > Yes, this is indeed my implication. That he could not have possibly already talked to very many women. Wait, me? Heh. That proves, as a matter of fact, that you don't know shit about me. > I would say the same thing if someone were to claim "Racism in America is over!" Except I didn't make any such declaration, I said what I actually said, and you deflected from those actual words by fantasizing about me based on a straw man. I didn't say everything is fair for women, I say there is way bigger unfairness on other levels, up to murder and carpet bombing, and I know plenty of intelligent strong women who exactly zero problems not only realizing that, they'd feel insulted if I didn't assume they know that. I mean, geez.
PavlovsCat 10y ago
> they have to deal with serious problems that their male counterparts do not. Who denied that? But that still leaves the question is how to react to that, and furthermore, with what motivation, and what long-term goals, if any. Which is off-topic, granted, but it's not like I mean any of this to say that "asking a female engineer is dumb, why would that even be a thing", at least not as far as I'm concerned. It's a great idea, which is why I don't see much to talk about there. When a question comes to mind, I'll pose it, until then I might still respond to tangents others went on. > And just because other people have things worse, doesn't mean that other important problems don't exist. No, but it's a great litmus test for differentiating between people who care about inequality where it affects them, and not so much when it affects others. For something that has morality as the sole argument, that matters. It has nothing to do with engineering either. On the one hand, John Lennon's song "Woman is the nigger of the world" is still sadly true, on the other hand, so is Ron Dellums' response to the controversy it caused: > If you define "niggers" as someone whose lifestyle is defined by others, whose opportunities are defined by others, whose role in society are defined by others, then Good News! You don't have to be black to be a "nigger" in this society. Most of the people in America are "niggers". -- Ron Dellums Is that what-aboutism? Or just saying "yeah, and if this upsets you, the next thing I'm going to show you is going to make you mad, because it contains an even HIGHER concentration of what you say makes you mad about this thing!". If then people react like cork to a magnet to that higher concentration, it's not the values and principles they care about, it's that they might get something out of it. Which all sorts of people do in all sorts of areas, making them lamers in my books, nothing more, nothing less. Yes, the victimization happened and happens, and it's unacceptable and a screaming injustice. But there is still, on top of that, this fork in the road: where the question comes up whether someone wants to find ways to STOP being a victim, or if they want to find ways to USE that status. Both approaches are used by people, and they are mutually exclusive. Being off-topic doesn't make it less true or less unsettling a blind spot. Something like Crockford getting disinvited would never ever happened with reversed genders, and we're still talking about how only women have those unique experiences? I agree it doesn't matter in scale -- women "have it worse" atm in many respects -- but it does matter in principle, and where I get a scent that it doesn't, I absolutely am out, and so are dozens of women I know. Yes, they want a fair shot, they don't want to die the death of a thousand paper cuts, but still no, resoundingly no, they don't want a vagina pass. They want to be peers, and being more than that would be just as bad to them as being less than that. They are not corrupt people, they have character. I suspect it correlates to that, and that many females, engineer or not, actually DO notice that on top of the shitty end of the stick they receive, there are these assholes prancing around with a vagina pass, making it worse for them and everybody for personal gain. So again, while it's off-topic, and wasn't even on my radar before I saw with what rhetoric and handwaving Jacob Appelbaum was assassinated in front of our eyes, I absolutely consider it a deal breaker, an elephant on the couch, something that needs to be dealt with and nipped in the bud. I am absolutely on board with and loyal to anyone who shares this disgust of doing using victimhood to victimize - the rest can fend for themselves. Against the better part of humanity too, I dare say.