13 ms·

Cue defensive comments from male readers...

Chinjut 10y ago
Boy oh boy, so many. Any time a woman dares to lament how maybe her experiences in tech are colored by that minority status, Hacker News pounces en masse with little self-awareness. Not everyone on HN, of course. But, overall, threads like this are... distressing to read.
- jasoncchild 10y ago
  Yes. This. Most of my career was in electrical engineering and electronics design. Until one month ago, after finally transitioning into a 100% software role with a 100% software shop after 15 years in tech, I work with a female engineer. 15 years, a dozen companies. One, lone female engineer. It is this experience that helps inform me to the problems of inequity in tech. It also has exposed me to many, many defensive colleagues who are all good people...but cannot divorce their own personal worth from the topic. They are hypersensitive to perceived criticisms.
- exstudent2 10y ago
  I think there's quite a bit of self-awareness and honesty in questioning these types of initiatives. So many of these "women in tech" discussions are thiny veiled power plays to take economic and decision making power away from developers. In the past few years we've seen feminists call for Linus Torvalds' head, attacks on the _concept_ of meritocracy, codes of conduct forced down many open source project's throats, masses of women only networking and hiring events, diversity drives that favor hiring women over men, many social media witch hunts against engineers of all levels... At some point you have to step back and question the narrative that's being pushed. There is not, and never has been anything stopping women from learning to code. All you need is a computer, an internet connection and self motivation.
  - keyboardhitter 10y ago
    > At some point you have to step back and question the narrative that's being pushed. There is not, and never has been anything stopping women from learning to code. All you need is a computer, an internet connection and self motivation. I think the narrative is more focused on women being treated differently (whether that is intentional or not) in existing social / work settings in the industry. I did not get the impression this article was referring to learning, but perhaps I missed those points.
  - jshevek 10y ago
    > I think there's quite a bit of self-awareness and honesty in questioning these types of initiatives. Sometimes "self awareness" is code for "willingness to limit oneself to 'approved positions'"
- gentleteblor 10y ago
  True. HN never seems more like Reddit than when we're discussing diversity (gender, race, economic). All the bad habits (mansplaining, straw man arguments etc.) you find elsewhere seem to suddenly rise to the surface. Distressing indeed.
  - exstudent2 10y ago
    If you want people to take your opinions on gender issues seriously, it's probably best not to use sexist terms like "mansplaining". Edit (for some reason, locked from commenting further): > It describes a specific behavior almost entirely practiced by men Um no it doesn't. Possibly the word your looking for is condescending (that's usually what people mean when they say "mansplaining"). I don't see that here though. This is just a thread with men and women voicing their opinions (very respectfully I might add). Men are allowed to have thoughts and feelings. It's not right to shame them for it and it's not right to gender an attack of any kind. If someone is being a jerk, call out that individual, don't blame a whole gender.
    - gentleteblor 10y ago
      I think my usage of "mansplaining" is pretty ideal here. It describes a specific behavior almost entirely practiced by men and which is being practiced right here and now. The interesting part about "mansplaining" (as it were), is that it's usually slathered in "appeals to reason", logical fallacies, declarations of impartiality etc. etc. But it's easy to spot.
      - jshevek 10y ago
        > usually slathered in "appeals to reason", logical fallacies, declarations of impartiality If you think that other posters have engaged in logical fallacies, why not quote the text, name the fallacy, and explain how you think it applies? Re: "appeals to reason", we absolutely should strive to be reasonable in our evaluation of claims and positions. I believe this is the main reason that various kinds of ideologues get strong pushback on HN.
    - 10y ago
- keyboardhitter 10y ago
  Yes... I came into this thread wanting to comment about how I relate strongly to Jules, but then was disheartened at the many comments diminishing these experiences. Oh well. the "DGAF" attitude mentioned at the bottom of the article works wonders for worrying about things like HN ;)
- Chinjut 10y ago
  The vote total on this went quite a bit up, and now has crashed all the way down. It'd be cool to see upvote/downvote splits instead of having to deduce them by paying frequent enough attention to track history in this way.
Mz 10y ago
Thank you for noticing and commenting. But, it would be more helpful to women here if more men engaged us in a meaningful manner. Post our articles. Say non vacuous things about us or this problem space. Upvote us. Talk with us. Commenting on how some men mishandle it puts more energy into the wrong things. If you want to see real change, give that energy instead to constructive actions that involve women.
dang 10y ago
Please don't post like this here. It adds noise and, if it has any other effect at all, probably increases the odds of such defensiveness.
- kelukelugames 10y ago
  I don't understand how anyone can read this thread and not think HN has many "defensive" posters.

Boy oh boy, so many. Any time a woman dares to lament how maybe her experiences in tech are colored by that minority status, Hacker News pounces en masse with little self-awareness. Not everyone on HN, of course. But, overall, threads like this are... distressing to read.

jasoncchild 10y ago
Yes. This. Most of my career was in electrical engineering and electronics design. Until one month ago, after finally transitioning into a 100% software role with a 100% software shop after 15 years in tech, I work with a female engineer. 15 years, a dozen companies. One, lone female engineer. It is this experience that helps inform me to the problems of inequity in tech. It also has exposed me to many, many defensive colleagues who are all good people...but cannot divorce their own personal worth from the topic. They are hypersensitive to perceived criticisms.
exstudent2 10y ago
I think there's quite a bit of self-awareness and honesty in questioning these types of initiatives. So many of these "women in tech" discussions are thiny veiled power plays to take economic and decision making power away from developers. In the past few years we've seen feminists call for Linus Torvalds' head, attacks on the _concept_ of meritocracy, codes of conduct forced down many open source project's throats, masses of women only networking and hiring events, diversity drives that favor hiring women over men, many social media witch hunts against engineers of all levels... At some point you have to step back and question the narrative that's being pushed. There is not, and never has been anything stopping women from learning to code. All you need is a computer, an internet connection and self motivation.
- keyboardhitter 10y ago
  > At some point you have to step back and question the narrative that's being pushed. There is not, and never has been anything stopping women from learning to code. All you need is a computer, an internet connection and self motivation. I think the narrative is more focused on women being treated differently (whether that is intentional or not) in existing social / work settings in the industry. I did not get the impression this article was referring to learning, but perhaps I missed those points.
- jshevek 10y ago
  > I think there's quite a bit of self-awareness and honesty in questioning these types of initiatives. Sometimes "self awareness" is code for "willingness to limit oneself to 'approved positions'"
gentleteblor 10y ago
True. HN never seems more like Reddit than when we're discussing diversity (gender, race, economic). All the bad habits (mansplaining, straw man arguments etc.) you find elsewhere seem to suddenly rise to the surface. Distressing indeed.
- exstudent2 10y ago
  If you want people to take your opinions on gender issues seriously, it's probably best not to use sexist terms like "mansplaining". Edit (for some reason, locked from commenting further): > It describes a specific behavior almost entirely practiced by men Um no it doesn't. Possibly the word your looking for is condescending (that's usually what people mean when they say "mansplaining"). I don't see that here though. This is just a thread with men and women voicing their opinions (very respectfully I might add). Men are allowed to have thoughts and feelings. It's not right to shame them for it and it's not right to gender an attack of any kind. If someone is being a jerk, call out that individual, don't blame a whole gender.
  - gentleteblor 10y ago
    I think my usage of "mansplaining" is pretty ideal here. It describes a specific behavior almost entirely practiced by men and which is being practiced right here and now. The interesting part about "mansplaining" (as it were), is that it's usually slathered in "appeals to reason", logical fallacies, declarations of impartiality etc. etc. But it's easy to spot.
    - jshevek 10y ago
      > usually slathered in "appeals to reason", logical fallacies, declarations of impartiality If you think that other posters have engaged in logical fallacies, why not quote the text, name the fallacy, and explain how you think it applies? Re: "appeals to reason", we absolutely should strive to be reasonable in our evaluation of claims and positions. I believe this is the main reason that various kinds of ideologues get strong pushback on HN.
  - 10y ago
keyboardhitter 10y ago
Yes... I came into this thread wanting to comment about how I relate strongly to Jules, but then was disheartened at the many comments diminishing these experiences. Oh well. the "DGAF" attitude mentioned at the bottom of the article works wonders for worrying about things like HN ;)
Chinjut 10y ago
The vote total on this went quite a bit up, and now has crashed all the way down. It'd be cool to see upvote/downvote splits instead of having to deduce them by paying frequent enough attention to track history in this way.

Mz 10y ago

Thank you for noticing and commenting. But, it would be more helpful to women here if more men engaged us in a meaningful manner. Post our articles. Say non vacuous things about us or this problem space. Upvote us. Talk with us. Commenting on how some men mishandle it puts more energy into the wrong things. If you want to see real change, give that energy instead to constructive actions that involve women.

dang 10y ago

Please don't post like this here. It adds noise and, if it has any other effect at all, probably increases the odds of such defensiveness.

kelukelugames 10y ago
I don't understand how anyone can read this thread and not think HN has many "defensive" posters.