9 ms·

It is a shame that the article is behind a paywall; it sounds as if it is a very well balanced article. There seems to have been many things that people forgot

by jimjag 10y ago

It is a shame that the article is behind a paywall; it sounds as if it is a very well balanced article. There seems to have been many things that people forgot about when following the previous thread (https://lwn.net/Articles/699047/ https://lwn.net/Articles/699047/ and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12411747 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12411747), which I hope to relate here: 1. The whole issue was an open and honest DISCUSSION. Many people took this as an indication that AOO was dead. I fear that my own response to Dennis' post on-list went a bit too far in reinforcing that (mis)belief but the lack of (perceived) developer energy was the basis for the whole discussion. Dennis did not say "AOO is dead, what should we do" but rather that the AOO community should discuss, as a contingency plan what a retirement would look like. I may plan or discuss my funeral (or final wishes), but that does not mean I am dead or dying. :-) But think about this: what other project would be so open and candid? Such openness, and the true appreciation that discussion be done in public is a core part of the Apache Way. It's also a core part of what open source work. 2. Because of this "publicity", the AOO has been overwhelmed by lots and lots of offers of support, which have been graciously and thankfully accepted. 3. People have also forgotten that choices, even in FOSS, are a Good Thing. LibreOffice is very successful, and they should be congratulated for their success. But certainly there is room for other players in this game, and certainly room for one (or more) that are under a permissive license. The thing is is that they don't have to be clones; they can have different audiences, different "missions" so-to-speak. 4. It is sad when we in the FOSS community degrade ourselves to simple, base license-wars. There are good, solid reasons for permissive, weak copyleft and strong copyleft, and I've contributed to them all. IMO, what's next for Apache OpenOffice is what the Apache OpenOffice community decides; it sounds as if this whole kerflunkle has served as a kick-in-the-arse to the AOO team: they see how important AOO still is to numerous people, and they have loads of new volunteers offering to help. A 4.1.3 release is forthcoming so that is good news and a step in the right direction.

cesarb 10y ago
> It is a shame that the article is behind a paywall; it sounds as if it is a very well balanced article. The link I posted is a "SubscriberLink", which bypasses the paywall; see https://lwn.net/op/FAQ.lwn#slinks https://lwn.net/op/FAQ.lwn#slinks for details. Even without it, the article will be outside the paywall in a little more than one week.
cyphar 10y ago
> But certainly there is room for other players in this game, and certainly room for one (or more) that are under a permissive license. Why is "like $X but under a permissive license" something that people champion for? Are we not all in the same boat, trying to replace proprietary software so users can live in freedom? Permissive licenses simply do not help achieve this goal as effectively as copyleft licenses do. If you want to argue that AOO will be technically superior or whatever, that's fine. But championing "we also allow proprietary forks" is not helping any users of free software.
- adrianmalacoda 10y ago
  > Why is "like $X but under a permissive license" something that people champion for? Are we not all in the same boat, trying to replace proprietary software so users can live in freedom? Permissive licenses simply do not help achieve this goal as effectively as copyleft licenses do. In general, the people who champion for permissive licenses are not the same people who care at all about replacing proprietary software or "users living in freedom." The purpose of using a permissive license is indeed to aid proprietary software development, not hinder it - and I believe Apache OO was relicensed in this manner for the explicit purpose of being an upstream for proprietary end-user applications, rather than as an end-user application itself.
- nkurz 10y ago
  Permissive licenses simply do not help achieve this goal as effectively as copyleft licenses do. I use to share that view, but I'm no longer sure if this is true. Do you have evidence you could point to, or is this a instinctual opinion? I don't have evidence going the other way, but I don't think it's a clear cut truth.
  - cyphar 10y ago
    > Do you have evidence you could point to, or is this a instinctual opinion? The Sony PlayStation is based on a fork of FreeBSD. It is entirely proprietary. Lots of different embedded device also use BSD because they are permissively licensed. Anybody who gets such a device is screwed because they cannot modify it or even know what the device is doing. This is true for the majority of IoT devices (which is a serious problem going forward). To be fair, there aren't nearly enough GPL enforcement lawsuits as there should be (which is why I donate to the Software Freedom Conservancy) so it's not like the copyleft side is /much/ better but at least copyleft does help achieve the goal. In addition, GPLv3's anti-tivoisation clauses are quite unique in the free software world and are specifically written to ensure that users have freedom over devices that try to undermine the spirit of the GPL. You won't find any permissive license that has such protections for your freedom (because it's not enforceable without making the license copyleft). This argument doesn't hold for standards, generally. Because what matters for a standard is adoption. Sure, you're making it possible to have a proprietary fork of your reference implementation but at least users can be sure that the specification is actually used (and if the spec is Apache licensed then you're safe from patents which is something that can't be said of proprietary specifications). But Apache OpenOffice isn't a standard, so this is not really all that relevant.
simosx 10y ago
> 2. Because of this "publicity", the AOO has been overwhelmed by lots and lots of offers of support, which have been graciously and thankfully accepted. Is that really happening? I do not see significant traffic on the dev mailing list. In addition, the new "recruitement" mailing list does not appear to be active. Does it have any list archives so that we can establish whether there are loads of actual offers of support?
- cesarb 10y ago
  The archives for the "recruitment" list seem to be at https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/openoffice-recruitment/ https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/openoffice-recruit...
- davidgerard 10y ago
  There is no visible evidence for this claim, no.

by jimjag 10y ago

cesarb 10y ago

> It is a shame that the article is behind a paywall; it sounds as if it is a very well balanced article. The link I posted is a "SubscriberLink", which bypasses the paywall; see https://lwn.net/op/FAQ.lwn#slinks https://lwn.net/op/FAQ.lwn#slinks for details. Even without it, the article will be outside the paywall in a little more than one week.

cyphar 10y ago

> But certainly there is room for other players in this game, and certainly room for one (or more) that are under a permissive license. Why is "like $X but under a permissive license" something that people champion for? Are we not all in the same boat, trying to replace proprietary software so users can live in freedom? Permissive licenses simply do not help achieve this goal as effectively as copyleft licenses do. If you want to argue that AOO will be technically superior or whatever, that's fine. But championing "we also allow proprietary forks" is not helping any users of free software.

adrianmalacoda 10y ago
> Why is "like $X but under a permissive license" something that people champion for? Are we not all in the same boat, trying to replace proprietary software so users can live in freedom? Permissive licenses simply do not help achieve this goal as effectively as copyleft licenses do. In general, the people who champion for permissive licenses are not the same people who care at all about replacing proprietary software or "users living in freedom." The purpose of using a permissive license is indeed to aid proprietary software development, not hinder it - and I believe Apache OO was relicensed in this manner for the explicit purpose of being an upstream for proprietary end-user applications, rather than as an end-user application itself.
nkurz 10y ago
Permissive licenses simply do not help achieve this goal as effectively as copyleft licenses do. I use to share that view, but I'm no longer sure if this is true. Do you have evidence you could point to, or is this a instinctual opinion? I don't have evidence going the other way, but I don't think it's a clear cut truth.
- cyphar 10y ago
  > Do you have evidence you could point to, or is this a instinctual opinion? The Sony PlayStation is based on a fork of FreeBSD. It is entirely proprietary. Lots of different embedded device also use BSD because they are permissively licensed. Anybody who gets such a device is screwed because they cannot modify it or even know what the device is doing. This is true for the majority of IoT devices (which is a serious problem going forward). To be fair, there aren't nearly enough GPL enforcement lawsuits as there should be (which is why I donate to the Software Freedom Conservancy) so it's not like the copyleft side is /much/ better but at least copyleft does help achieve the goal. In addition, GPLv3's anti-tivoisation clauses are quite unique in the free software world and are specifically written to ensure that users have freedom over devices that try to undermine the spirit of the GPL. You won't find any permissive license that has such protections for your freedom (because it's not enforceable without making the license copyleft). This argument doesn't hold for standards, generally. Because what matters for a standard is adoption. Sure, you're making it possible to have a proprietary fork of your reference implementation but at least users can be sure that the specification is actually used (and if the spec is Apache licensed then you're safe from patents which is something that can't be said of proprietary specifications). But Apache OpenOffice isn't a standard, so this is not really all that relevant.

simosx 10y ago

> 2. Because of this "publicity", the AOO has been overwhelmed by lots and lots of offers of support, which have been graciously and thankfully accepted. Is that really happening? I do not see significant traffic on the dev mailing list. In addition, the new "recruitement" mailing list does not appear to be active. Does it have any list archives so that we can establish whether there are loads of actual offers of support?

cesarb 10y ago
The archives for the "recruitment" list seem to be at https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/openoffice-recruitment/ https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/openoffice-recruit...
davidgerard 10y ago
There is no visible evidence for this claim, no.