4 ms·

I often wonder how would these people hire soldiers? "So I see you have no previous experience in killing people... We are looking for people that have at least

by GoToRO 10y ago

I often wonder how would these people hire soldiers? "So I see you have no previous experience in killing people... We are looking for people that have at least 5 years of experience in killing people." My point is you need smart enough people for your job and nothing more. You do an IQ test, a personality one and that's all. The rest can be learned.

ng12 10y ago
There's a line there somewhere. Hiring someone for knowing Node is pretty silly, but hiring someone who's spent 5 years developing web apps is a useful metric.
- GoToRO 10y ago
  In my experience, not that much. The 5 years experience might mean one year repeated 5 times. The person might be bored but he has no choice but to continue with web development and so on. Get somebody who is interested and smart enough for the job. Note I didn't say "the smartest".
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - red_blobs 10y ago
    5 years of 1 year experience repeated 5 times is better than someone that will introduce spaghetti code and security flaws simply because they've never experienced it. It takes years to figure out patterns (when to use and not use them), good coding practices, avoiding newbie mistakes like sql injection and xss and how to actually make a deadline (its not easy to finish a project when you also have to learn the language and other skills in addition to the task at hand). As a business owner, I don't want someone learning the above on the job and on my dime. There is a company in MI that tried this called Compuware back in the 90s. It was a complete and utter disaster.
civilian 10y ago
I think the personalty trait we call "grit" or "stick-to-it-ive-ness" is hard to test for. And I think the best way to test for it is by looking at someone's track record. And it's one of the big three requirements. (which are: smart, works hard, someone you want to work with. )
- GoToRO 10y ago
  Don't test then. Have somebody with real life experience judge the candidate. And by real life experience I don't mean 10 years in the same job... Anyway the interview process is so broken that they could actually improve it by just flipping a coin.
rifung 10y ago
Not that I disagree with you, but sadly, most companies don't seem to want to train people anymore. They rather push that responsibility to either universities or the applicants themselves. In fairness, I do think that someone who is very comfortable with a language or framework will be able to do things much faster than someone who isn't. Considering how quickly people change jobs nowadays, I can also see how companies don't want to train people only so they will leave shortly after or even before they're useful. Obviously this is just based on my own experience in the US.
- GoToRO 10y ago
  I agree with you about the training. However if the stack is too specific, then the stack it's like a fingerprint and they are looking for somebody with the same fingerprint...
  - Jemmeh 10y ago
    This is actually one of my interview red flags. For example if I say "I've worked with VB.NET 5 years, but not much C#" and they want 1 year C# experience. If they say that's a problem most of the time they don't know what they're talking about or they're not a company willing to invest in training their employees. I want a job that lets me learn.
  - GoToRO 10y ago
    @Jemmeh I "failed" a similar interview (VB, C#) Don't they know that the VB and C# examples are shown on Microsoft's site side by side?! The only conclusion I reached is that one should navigate in life in such a way that your well being should not depend on people that are less smart, less experienced, less curious than yourself.
    - sshumaker 10y ago
      I think this is probably because there is still a stigma associated with being a VB programmer. If you knew F# instead you might have been hired anyway.
- 10y ago
Jemmeh 10y ago
If I am a business owner, and I need someone to create a website for me to do something, the first thing I will reach for is someone who has already done similar projects and has a track record of getting it done. Teaching people is expensive, takes time (my website could be making me money -right now-) and doesn't always pay off. Whenever possible, it's often preferred to grab someone who can just hit the ground running. I'm not saying this is perfect, just that's why experience is sought after. We have an annoying problem of way too many job ads being for seniors and very few for entry level. People have to get their foot in the door to ever become senior.
- GoToRO 10y ago
  Trust me, if you have a passionate non-web developer he can do the job just fine. And he/she applied for the job so they are interested to learn something new, maybe already started doing so but there is nothing to put down in a CV. They will read the tutorials, the documentation and they will deliver. I feel that nobody wants to give a chance to anybody.
  - sotojuan 10y ago
    The business owner's response is that the experienced person won't take time reading tutorials or asking questions and thus get it done faster. FWIW I agree most companies should train.
  - Jemmeh 10y ago
    I totally agree that they -can- do the job. The most important thing for a software developer is the ability to learn. We need to give people chances so that they even even enter the field to one day become senior level. But I also understand how a lot of business owners feel about it. It takes time to learn these things vs someone who has basically already done this project before in this stack before. A business in a hurry (most of them) would rather have someone who already knows how to do it. Look at Stack Overflow Careers. Look how many more ads there are asking for senior devs.
    - Apocryphon 10y ago
knz 10y ago
> My point is you need smart enough people for your job and nothing more. You do an IQ test, a personality one and that's all. The rest can be learned. Company culture matters. Even the most intelligent people that are willing to grow will fizzle if they are in an environment that isn't productive.

by GoToRO 10y ago

ng12 10y ago

There's a line there somewhere. Hiring someone for knowing Node is pretty silly, but hiring someone who's spent 5 years developing web apps is a useful metric.

GoToRO 10y ago
In my experience, not that much. The 5 years experience might mean one year repeated 5 times. The person might be bored but he has no choice but to continue with web development and so on. Get somebody who is interested and smart enough for the job. Note I didn't say "the smartest".
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- red_blobs 10y ago
  5 years of 1 year experience repeated 5 times is better than someone that will introduce spaghetti code and security flaws simply because they've never experienced it. It takes years to figure out patterns (when to use and not use them), good coding practices, avoiding newbie mistakes like sql injection and xss and how to actually make a deadline (its not easy to finish a project when you also have to learn the language and other skills in addition to the task at hand). As a business owner, I don't want someone learning the above on the job and on my dime. There is a company in MI that tried this called Compuware back in the 90s. It was a complete and utter disaster.

civilian 10y ago

I think the personalty trait we call "grit" or "stick-to-it-ive-ness" is hard to test for. And I think the best way to test for it is by looking at someone's track record. And it's one of the big three requirements. (which are: smart, works hard, someone you want to work with. )

GoToRO 10y ago
Don't test then. Have somebody with real life experience judge the candidate. And by real life experience I don't mean 10 years in the same job... Anyway the interview process is so broken that they could actually improve it by just flipping a coin.

rifung 10y ago

Not that I disagree with you, but sadly, most companies don't seem to want to train people anymore. They rather push that responsibility to either universities or the applicants themselves. In fairness, I do think that someone who is very comfortable with a language or framework will be able to do things much faster than someone who isn't. Considering how quickly people change jobs nowadays, I can also see how companies don't want to train people only so they will leave shortly after or even before they're useful. Obviously this is just based on my own experience in the US.

GoToRO 10y ago
I agree with you about the training. However if the stack is too specific, then the stack it's like a fingerprint and they are looking for somebody with the same fingerprint...
- Jemmeh 10y ago
  This is actually one of my interview red flags. For example if I say "I've worked with VB.NET 5 years, but not much C#" and they want 1 year C# experience. If they say that's a problem most of the time they don't know what they're talking about or they're not a company willing to invest in training their employees. I want a job that lets me learn.
- GoToRO 10y ago
  @Jemmeh I "failed" a similar interview (VB, C#) Don't they know that the VB and C# examples are shown on Microsoft's site side by side?! The only conclusion I reached is that one should navigate in life in such a way that your well being should not depend on people that are less smart, less experienced, less curious than yourself.
  - sshumaker 10y ago
    I think this is probably because there is still a stigma associated with being a VB programmer. If you knew F# instead you might have been hired anyway.
10y ago

Jemmeh 10y ago

If I am a business owner, and I need someone to create a website for me to do something, the first thing I will reach for is someone who has already done similar projects and has a track record of getting it done. Teaching people is expensive, takes time (my website could be making me money -right now-) and doesn't always pay off. Whenever possible, it's often preferred to grab someone who can just hit the ground running. I'm not saying this is perfect, just that's why experience is sought after. We have an annoying problem of way too many job ads being for seniors and very few for entry level. People have to get their foot in the door to ever become senior.

GoToRO 10y ago
Trust me, if you have a passionate non-web developer he can do the job just fine. And he/she applied for the job so they are interested to learn something new, maybe already started doing so but there is nothing to put down in a CV. They will read the tutorials, the documentation and they will deliver. I feel that nobody wants to give a chance to anybody.
- sotojuan 10y ago
  The business owner's response is that the experienced person won't take time reading tutorials or asking questions and thus get it done faster. FWIW I agree most companies should train.
- Jemmeh 10y ago
  I totally agree that they -can- do the job. The most important thing for a software developer is the ability to learn. We need to give people chances so that they even even enter the field to one day become senior level. But I also understand how a lot of business owners feel about it. It takes time to learn these things vs someone who has basically already done this project before in this stack before. A business in a hurry (most of them) would rather have someone who already knows how to do it. Look at Stack Overflow Careers. Look how many more ads there are asking for senior devs.
  - Apocryphon 10y ago

knz 10y ago

> My point is you need smart enough people for your job and nothing more. You do an IQ test, a personality one and that's all. The rest can be learned. Company culture matters. Even the most intelligent people that are willing to grow will fizzle if they are in an environment that isn't productive.