6 ms·

My answers as a female. 1.) Not completely. This profession isn't appealing to a lot of women for many reasons outside of it being prominently male dominated.

by 20years 10y ago

My answers as a female. 1.) Not completely. This profession isn't appealing to a lot of women for many reasons outside of it being prominently male dominated. 2.) No 3.) In my early career I was always the only female on smaller male dominated teams. New male devs that came in initially automatically assumed I was administration. It only took a few days for them to realize what I did and all had total respect after. I personally think the heavy PR push towards women in code over the last couple of years has made it more uncomfortable for women in the profession. I for one don't want that kind of spotlight on me. I want to be judged for my capabilities not for my gender. I am also turned off by companies who heavily promote that they hire women/men equally. I want to be chosen because they think I am the best fit for the job not because they are trying to fill some more female seats.

zamalek 10y ago
Personally I'm in agreement with the rhetoric that blames the interests that we expose our children to, this tweet[1] really sums up that whole situation (though I'm not so naive to think that this is alone to blame). Some more questions: 1. Did you have [what shouldn't be] atypical interests as a girl? 2. If yes, did other girls discriminate against you because of those interests? My thinking is that it's a compounded problem: as liberal as I might try to be with my children, their peers might disuade them from doing what they want to do (primarily because of their archaic upbringing). It's always good to re-evaluate your beliefs, so I'm genuinely interested here. Regardless, thanks for your insightful comment. [1]: https://twitter.com/mariofusco/status/772677525885640704 https://twitter.com/mariofusco/status/772677525885640704
- 20years 10y ago
  GREAT additional questions. My answers may not be the popular sentiment but here they are. 1. No and never have. Other than interest in boys ;) But I also wasn't boy crazy like a lot of girls. 2. Other girls can't relate to me and I to them. I have a couple of very close girl friends that I have been friends with for a long time but I tend to mesh with men better. I also have 4 sisters all of whom I am very close with. Not one of them have any desire to get into this profession. Bottom line is many women just don't want to do this and for reasons that have nothing to do with it being a male dominated industry. Does that make it more difficult for the minority of women who are drawn to this profession? Yep! But trying to force more women into it is not the answer imo. Also - I am not totally convinced it is because of the rhetoric we as females are exposed to. Yeah, that makes it hard for a lot of us that are not drawn to that type of stuff but I do believe many girls are. As an example: I have a 4 year old daughter. We do our best not to expose her to that but she is so drawn to girly things. It is in her DNA. My son on the other hand isn't and neither was I. I believe I am the minority though. Women and Men are different and are drawn to different things. That is not a bad thing.
  - zamalek 10y ago
    Thanks for the food for thought!
  - cynoclast 10y ago
    >Bottom line is many women just don't want to do this and for reasons that have nothing to do with it being a male dominated industry. Does that make it more difficult for the minority of women who are drawn to this profession? Yep! But trying to force more women into it is not the answer imo. Exactly! I know exactly how to achieve gender parity in tech, force more women to do it. But alas, that's even worse!
  - morgtheborg 10y ago
    > Also - I am not totally convinced it is because of the rhetoric we as females are exposed to. A lot of the guys I know seem to have gotten into tech while modding their computer games. I myself got into it while creating websites for computers games I played (Petz and Creatures primarily) that had very active online communities I wanted to play a greater role in. You can accomplish or support stereotypically feminine goals/interests with tech and, when presented within that context, it can inspire girls who are stereotypically feminine to want to jump in if given support. But I think tech is not often presented as a means to an end that little girls are not at all interested in and the "natural" path of computer game modding (I have no idea how common this is in reality, but it seems most of the guys I run into Sf have it in their background as an entry point) that so many men seem to fall into isn't one as many women follow. Do I think this means the world is ending and we all need to freak out? Not really. But I do think this statement > Women and Men are different and are drawn to different things. Is too flippant as an explanation for why women aren't in tech. Because tech is a tool and it isn't limited in use to male interests. People learn to cook not because they necessarily enjoy throwing ingredients together (though some do), but because the final product is worth the effort. Why women aren't actively learning and using such a powerful tool is an interesting question that I think isn't answered by innate differences in male/female interests. > Bottom line is many women just don't want to do this and for reasons that have nothing to do with it being a male dominated industry... Personally, I think a much larger issue than the pipeline "issue" is that male dominated fields tend to create environments that are hostile to women or, really, any person with professional standards of behavior. I was turned down for a position with a whole bunch of bizarre reasons; I later learned that company routinely had business meetings and events at the local strip club and their CEO routinely handed out cocaine. Clearly I was not a culture fit. That's an extreme example, but, to a lighter degree, male dominated fields normalize behavior that would make the average woman deeply uncomfortable in terms of casual sexism. The company I work with right now supported me when I requested we put a halt to casual use of words like bitch, slut, etc. as derogatory words thrown about the workplace. But the fact that even needed to be brought up as unacceptable is insane and they could easily have pulled a "we're all happy this way; YOU'RE the one with a problem". I care more about why women leave the field and don't come back despite loving the work itself than I care about why Suzie chooses to major in English rather than CS. And that is an issue of a male dominated field. One of my friends is a male nurse; he's surrounded by women. And he's happy as a clam. I don't know many women who feel the same when the situation is reversed.
- morgtheborg 10y ago
  1. Did you have [what shouldn't be] atypical interests as a girl? Sort of? I read a LOT as a kid. I bought a book randomly as a third grader on interesting sites for kids on the net; this led to my Dad teaching me how to get on the net and my older brother helping me set up my first web page for my "online pets" via AngelFire. It's a website, so one might think atypical interest for a girl. However, I soon was teaching myself basics (aka copy pasta) so my site (moved over to Geocities :P) could be the prettiest in these online communities...which were dominated by girls. The USE of our technical knowledge was very typically female (caretaking games of animals, story-telling, community driven, pretty-all-the-things, etc). However, I also I played Diablo online and other video games with my siblings and Dad which is not considered normal for girls I believe. Comic books were also big in my house, so Batman was my favorite thing ever as a kid. Barbies and him had many a storyline together in my backyard. 2. If yes, did other girls discriminate against you because of those interests? No. Not at all.
cynoclast 10y ago
>I personally think the heavy PR push towards women in code over the last couple of years It's not been 'the last few years' It's been about 30, now. I can remember them pushing when I was in elementary school. Also, it's a misnomer to call it '[gender] dominated'. Tech is largely female rejected. Just as most men reject teaching, nursing, or the social sciences. Those aren't female dominated either, but male rejected. I'm perfectly happy working with competent people of either gender. I don't give a shit what's in their pants. Just don't be an idiot and we're all good.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Whitestrake 10y ago
  It does seem to me that calling it female-rejected is a more accurate way of framing this topic. Addressing it this way doesn't diminish or invalidate the issues people have with this state of affairs. And it still allows people to constructively ask the question, when a desire to increase the diversity within tech workplaces is present: How do we make tech more attractive to females? "Male dominated" is, yes, technically the current state of the tech industry, but it's not accurate to ascribe male domination as a self-fulfilling cause when female rejection consists of many other reasons too.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    > doesn't diminish or invalidate the issues people have It depends what those issues are > still allows people to constructively ask the question.. How do we make tech more attractive to females? Why is this of value? If tech as it is isn't attractive to females, why dress it up? Do we do the same with any other field? The word "dominated" or "domination" does have a slight stigma attached.
    - Whitestrake 10y ago
      Sorry for the late reply. > It depends what those issues are Not really. Female rejection implies and is consistent with male domination, it's simply addressing the root cause rather than the symptom. It doesn't claim to change the situation at all. > Why is this of value? First, let me stress that this is not a cause I've picked up for myself, so I'm not the ideal person to ask. However, within this thread there are sources that show measurable benefits to increased diversity in the workplace. As I wrote in the very sentence you partially quoted: > when a desire to increase the diversity within tech workplaces is present, What I'm saying here isn't that the question needs to be asked, merely that addressing the issue in this way doesn't preclude people who DO want to ask it.

by 20years 10y ago

zamalek 10y ago

Personally I'm in agreement with the rhetoric that blames the interests that we expose our children to, this tweet[1] really sums up that whole situation (though I'm not so naive to think that this is alone to blame). Some more questions: 1. Did you have [what shouldn't be] atypical interests as a girl? 2. If yes, did other girls discriminate against you because of those interests? My thinking is that it's a compounded problem: as liberal as I might try to be with my children, their peers might disuade them from doing what they want to do (primarily because of their archaic upbringing). It's always good to re-evaluate your beliefs, so I'm genuinely interested here. Regardless, thanks for your insightful comment. [1]: https://twitter.com/mariofusco/status/772677525885640704 https://twitter.com/mariofusco/status/772677525885640704

20years 10y ago
GREAT additional questions. My answers may not be the popular sentiment but here they are. 1. No and never have. Other than interest in boys ;) But I also wasn't boy crazy like a lot of girls. 2. Other girls can't relate to me and I to them. I have a couple of very close girl friends that I have been friends with for a long time but I tend to mesh with men better. I also have 4 sisters all of whom I am very close with. Not one of them have any desire to get into this profession. Bottom line is many women just don't want to do this and for reasons that have nothing to do with it being a male dominated industry. Does that make it more difficult for the minority of women who are drawn to this profession? Yep! But trying to force more women into it is not the answer imo. Also - I am not totally convinced it is because of the rhetoric we as females are exposed to. Yeah, that makes it hard for a lot of us that are not drawn to that type of stuff but I do believe many girls are. As an example: I have a 4 year old daughter. We do our best not to expose her to that but she is so drawn to girly things. It is in her DNA. My son on the other hand isn't and neither was I. I believe I am the minority though. Women and Men are different and are drawn to different things. That is not a bad thing.
- zamalek 10y ago
  Thanks for the food for thought!
- cynoclast 10y ago
  >Bottom line is many women just don't want to do this and for reasons that have nothing to do with it being a male dominated industry. Does that make it more difficult for the minority of women who are drawn to this profession? Yep! But trying to force more women into it is not the answer imo. Exactly! I know exactly how to achieve gender parity in tech, force more women to do it. But alas, that's even worse!
- morgtheborg 10y ago
  > Also - I am not totally convinced it is because of the rhetoric we as females are exposed to. A lot of the guys I know seem to have gotten into tech while modding their computer games. I myself got into it while creating websites for computers games I played (Petz and Creatures primarily) that had very active online communities I wanted to play a greater role in. You can accomplish or support stereotypically feminine goals/interests with tech and, when presented within that context, it can inspire girls who are stereotypically feminine to want to jump in if given support. But I think tech is not often presented as a means to an end that little girls are not at all interested in and the "natural" path of computer game modding (I have no idea how common this is in reality, but it seems most of the guys I run into Sf have it in their background as an entry point) that so many men seem to fall into isn't one as many women follow. Do I think this means the world is ending and we all need to freak out? Not really. But I do think this statement > Women and Men are different and are drawn to different things. Is too flippant as an explanation for why women aren't in tech. Because tech is a tool and it isn't limited in use to male interests. People learn to cook not because they necessarily enjoy throwing ingredients together (though some do), but because the final product is worth the effort. Why women aren't actively learning and using such a powerful tool is an interesting question that I think isn't answered by innate differences in male/female interests. > Bottom line is many women just don't want to do this and for reasons that have nothing to do with it being a male dominated industry... Personally, I think a much larger issue than the pipeline "issue" is that male dominated fields tend to create environments that are hostile to women or, really, any person with professional standards of behavior. I was turned down for a position with a whole bunch of bizarre reasons; I later learned that company routinely had business meetings and events at the local strip club and their CEO routinely handed out cocaine. Clearly I was not a culture fit. That's an extreme example, but, to a lighter degree, male dominated fields normalize behavior that would make the average woman deeply uncomfortable in terms of casual sexism. The company I work with right now supported me when I requested we put a halt to casual use of words like bitch, slut, etc. as derogatory words thrown about the workplace. But the fact that even needed to be brought up as unacceptable is insane and they could easily have pulled a "we're all happy this way; YOU'RE the one with a problem". I care more about why women leave the field and don't come back despite loving the work itself than I care about why Suzie chooses to major in English rather than CS. And that is an issue of a male dominated field. One of my friends is a male nurse; he's surrounded by women. And he's happy as a clam. I don't know many women who feel the same when the situation is reversed.
morgtheborg 10y ago
1. Did you have [what shouldn't be] atypical interests as a girl? Sort of? I read a LOT as a kid. I bought a book randomly as a third grader on interesting sites for kids on the net; this led to my Dad teaching me how to get on the net and my older brother helping me set up my first web page for my "online pets" via AngelFire. It's a website, so one might think atypical interest for a girl. However, I soon was teaching myself basics (aka copy pasta) so my site (moved over to Geocities :P) could be the prettiest in these online communities...which were dominated by girls. The USE of our technical knowledge was very typically female (caretaking games of animals, story-telling, community driven, pretty-all-the-things, etc). However, I also I played Diablo online and other video games with my siblings and Dad which is not considered normal for girls I believe. Comic books were also big in my house, so Batman was my favorite thing ever as a kid. Barbies and him had many a storyline together in my backyard. 2. If yes, did other girls discriminate against you because of those interests? No. Not at all.

cynoclast 10y ago

>I personally think the heavy PR push towards women in code over the last couple of years It's not been 'the last few years' It's been about 30, now. I can remember them pushing when I was in elementary school. Also, it's a misnomer to call it '[gender] dominated'. Tech is largely female rejected. Just as most men reject teaching, nursing, or the social sciences. Those aren't female dominated either, but male rejected. I'm perfectly happy working with competent people of either gender. I don't give a shit what's in their pants. Just don't be an idiot and we're all good.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Whitestrake 10y ago
It does seem to me that calling it female-rejected is a more accurate way of framing this topic. Addressing it this way doesn't diminish or invalidate the issues people have with this state of affairs. And it still allows people to constructively ask the question, when a desire to increase the diversity within tech workplaces is present: How do we make tech more attractive to females? "Male dominated" is, yes, technically the current state of the tech industry, but it's not accurate to ascribe male domination as a self-fulfilling cause when female rejection consists of many other reasons too.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > doesn't diminish or invalidate the issues people have It depends what those issues are > still allows people to constructively ask the question.. How do we make tech more attractive to females? Why is this of value? If tech as it is isn't attractive to females, why dress it up? Do we do the same with any other field? The word "dominated" or "domination" does have a slight stigma attached.
  - Whitestrake 10y ago
    Sorry for the late reply. > It depends what those issues are Not really. Female rejection implies and is consistent with male domination, it's simply addressing the root cause rather than the symptom. It doesn't claim to change the situation at all. > Why is this of value? First, let me stress that this is not a cause I've picked up for myself, so I'm not the ideal person to ask. However, within this thread there are sources that show measurable benefits to increased diversity in the workplace. As I wrote in the very sentence you partially quoted: > when a desire to increase the diversity within tech workplaces is present, What I'm saying here isn't that the question needs to be asked, merely that addressing the issue in this way doesn't preclude people who DO want to ask it.