4 ms·

It is good to see YC trying to use its platform to move this discussion forward, but I think that the title of the series is inherently troublesome. Referring t

It is good to see YC trying to use its platform to move this discussion forward, but I think that the title of the series is inherently troublesome. Referring to women software engineers as female software engineers is reductive and dehumanizing. Men are not usually referred to as “males”. Frankly, it sounds like a Ferenghi.

hnbroseph 10y ago
> Men are not usually referred to as “males”. citation needed, i guess. perhaps it's a background thing, as i've heard and used the terms "male" and "female" more frequently than "men" and "women" in my adult life. the latter set seems marginally "less serious" to me personally, though otherwise identical.
zild3d 10y ago
I completely disagree. "Female" and "male" are adjectives. "Women" and "men" are plural nouns. "Women software engineers" isn't even grammatically correct. [noun profession]: man painter - someone who paints a man. [adjective profession]: male painter - a man who paints.
ewjordan 10y ago
That's a bit of a knee-jerk, I think. Men are referred to as "male software engineers", because "men software engineers" sounds absolutely ridiculous. The asymmetry you're thinking of is when people refer to women as "females" and men as "men". That's a super offensive one, because we usually only use "female" and "male" as nouns when speaking about animals. Better, more specific words exist for humans. In the current situation, though, "female" is being used as an adjective, which is correct. The only alternative is to (ab)use "woman" as an apposite noun, which sometimes works, but can go terribly wrong as a general rule: "Ask a Man Nurse" vs. "Ask a Male Nurse" All that said, due to common usage "woman" works as an apposite in many places where "man" does not ("woman president" is fine, "man president" sounds weird). See http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2016/02/18/when_you_should_use_female_woman_or_lady_as_an_adjective_a_guide.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2016/02/18/when_yo... for more on all this.
marxidad 10y ago
Male is the neutral default. https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/02/16/male-as-the-neutral-default/ https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/02/16/male-as-the...
vacri 10y ago
Wrong way around. 'Female' is the adjective, 'woman' is the noun. We don't speak of 'man drivers' or 'man politicians', and I've never heard the series of words 'man engineers'/'man software engineers'. We talk about male and female athletes, but not man and woman athletes. (yes, female can be used as a noun by itself, but usually it's an adjective modifying a noun)

hnbroseph 10y ago

> Men are not usually referred to as “males”. citation needed, i guess. perhaps it's a background thing, as i've heard and used the terms "male" and "female" more frequently than "men" and "women" in my adult life. the latter set seems marginally "less serious" to me personally, though otherwise identical.

zild3d 10y ago

I completely disagree. "Female" and "male" are adjectives. "Women" and "men" are plural nouns. "Women software engineers" isn't even grammatically correct. [noun profession]: man painter - someone who paints a man. [adjective profession]: male painter - a man who paints.

ewjordan 10y ago

That's a bit of a knee-jerk, I think. Men are referred to as "male software engineers", because "men software engineers" sounds absolutely ridiculous. The asymmetry you're thinking of is when people refer to women as "females" and men as "men". That's a super offensive one, because we usually only use "female" and "male" as nouns when speaking about animals. Better, more specific words exist for humans. In the current situation, though, "female" is being used as an adjective, which is correct. The only alternative is to (ab)use "woman" as an apposite noun, which sometimes works, but can go terribly wrong as a general rule: "Ask a Man Nurse" vs. "Ask a Male Nurse" All that said, due to common usage "woman" works as an apposite in many places where "man" does not ("woman president" is fine, "man president" sounds weird). See http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2016/02/18/when_you_should_use_female_woman_or_lady_as_an_adjective_a_guide.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2016/02/18/when_yo... for more on all this.

marxidad 10y ago

Male is the neutral default. https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/02/16/male-as-the-neutral-default/ https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/02/16/male-as-the...

vacri 10y ago

Wrong way around. 'Female' is the adjective, 'woman' is the noun. We don't speak of 'man drivers' or 'man politicians', and I've never heard the series of words 'man engineers'/'man software engineers'. We talk about male and female athletes, but not man and woman athletes. (yes, female can be used as a noun by itself, but usually it's an adjective modifying a noun)